Becoming the Storm

[00:00:00] Triena McGuirk: Today we’re going to be speaking with Nicole Copen for bars. Thank you for being here today with us. Nicole. Nicole is a dear friend of mine. And, um, I came to know her working in family law and we worked representing some children, but today is more of, um, about who Nicole is and why she’s so passionate and so compassionate.

[00:00:21] Triena McGuirk: And so, um, wonderful at the job she does and being a helper and just learning some of the story behind her story of what she’s doing today. And so, um, coming into this, we were, we’re seeing there’s so much here. So I think this is gonna be the first of one or two or three episodes with Nicole, because there’s a lot of, um, uh, knowledge, a lot of wealth of experience that I think that you have to offer so many people, um, and you’re so vulnerable and so compassionate and you just really are very truthful with your experiences.

[00:00:51] Triena McGuirk: And I think we all can learn and grow from that. So

[00:00:53] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: thank you for being here today. Both of you for having me here today.

[00:00:58] Muhammad Kermalli: When we first get together with anybody. Yeah. Um, and we’ve never done this before and now that we’ve had a series and you’ve actually taken the time to look at some of the episodes that we’ve had.

[00:01:11] Muhammad Kermalli: And I’m always curious to know before you even have gone through it yourself, just from that perspective, what did you see and what do you see and what do you see as like the benefit of it? Why are you

[00:01:23] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: attracted to it? Yeah, just to be fair and honest. I haven’t watched a full one from beginning to end, but I have watched a lot of them just to get a feel for each one.

[00:01:33] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And that’s how I knew I wanted to do that. And the reason what I got from, from whatever I saw was that it’s about creating communities from the heart and communities that value people for, for who they are. And. It’s it’s. I think we, in this world, we need connection. And in this world we need communities.

[00:01:55] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And so often we go into communities because we think that’s the community that we have to go into or, um, sort of social events or social situations, because that’s who we are. That’s what we’ve chosen to be. Um, and they’re bad for us and they teach us the wrong things. Um, they create, um, inner critics inside of us and imposter syndrome inside of us because we’re not comparing yourself to those communities.

[00:02:21] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And we listened to podcasts with those communities. What I loved about this was it’s the creation of a community. Who you really are from the inside. And it’s about that. There are other communities that just value you for who you are, value your floors, value of vulnerabilities, value, your courageousness, that value courage.

[00:02:44] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Um, and for me, that was the nicest thing about this podcast. Was people being real, not pretending to be who they think society ought to be. It’s just, this is who I am. This is how I made it. My success. Um, so I think it’s, it’s the creation of a whole community, so people can go, yeah, there are more people like that.

[00:03:06] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I maybe that community wasn’t right for me. And I know that there are other, the other people who think like me. So I think that’s what really drew me to this podcast. We need to know that there are more people like us

[00:03:21] Muhammad Kermalli: and there are, I think there’s a ton out there. Um, I remember once I was doing a talk on work-life balance and there was a group of, yeah, right.

[00:03:31] Muhammad Kermalli: I just call it life. Right. Work life. But the point was that when I was in this group of 10 people who I had no connection with, and I thought to myself, why would they even believe me about work-life balance? What have I proven to them that I know anything about balance? Yeah. They don’t know me and what I got introduced as blah, blah, blah.

[00:03:55] Muhammad Kermalli: But I’m sitting there in their shoes and I was thinking, why would they believe

[00:03:59] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: me

[00:04:00] Muhammad Kermalli: on balance? What have I shown them that I know

[00:04:02] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: about balance? Oh, we’ve shown them only one part of our life. That looks very nice. Right. The picture represent picture. Yeah.

[00:04:10] Muhammad Kermalli: And as I was thinking about my presentation, I said, okay, so I will not talk to them about balance.

[00:04:15] Muhammad Kermalli: What I’m going to talk to them about are all the times that I lost my balance. Yeah. And that was my presentation. And I said, here’s my walk through all the times I lost balance. And what I learned from. Moments of imbalance and how I gained balance after that. And then how I lost balance again, and then how I gained balance and how it lost mouse.

[00:04:35] Muhammad Kermalli: And this is just what I’ve learned. That’s all I can. That’s all I can say. I can’t say that I know something about balance,

[00:04:42] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: isn’t it in weakness, their strength, and actually wrote something about this today on my LinkedIn thing or whatever it is. I’m trying this, this writing thing, because I was talking to a colleague of mine just a few days ago and there was some things happening and we’ve all been through stressful, you know, in times.

[00:05:01] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And we have been going through, we are, we will, we were chatting at the end of the conversation. She said, well, Nicole, you know, whatever, whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. You know? And I was like, no, That’s not right. And I said, I don’t want to be stronger. I want to be soft. And she said, what do you mean?

[00:05:19] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I said, because I think that’s just such a bad philosophy. So just toss aside, suck it up. Buttercup, move on, be stronger. Don’t let whatever it is bother you. No, it’s in your weakness that you’ve got your greatest learning. It’s in your weakness that you’ve got time to think about stuff and see how I want to change and how I want to evolve.

[00:05:41] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And I don’t want to be strong. I want to be empathetic and kind and flexible and see perspectives. And I can only see other perspectives if, if I’ve kind of been there myself and I want to be well-rounded and well grounded, I don’t want to be strong because if I’m struggling me as I’m not allowed to be weak.

[00:06:04] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And so I think sometimes we have to highlight that. In vulnerability, their strength, exactly.

[00:06:13] Triena McGuirk: Your weaknesses,

[00:06:13] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: your strengths, your weaknesses, your strengths. So I think those things will go, oh, suck it up. Or, you know, uh, walk it off or, you know, it will only make you stronger. Yeah.

[00:06:25] Muhammad Kermalli: Well it’s like saying that, you know, like courage and bravery means you have no fear.

[00:06:30] Muhammad Kermalli: No, it’s not that you have no fears that you’re just as afraid.

[00:06:36] Muhammad Kermalli: So yeah. It’s not like I don’t have weaknesses. I do have weaknesses and here’s, and then I keep going and these are my vulnerabilities and

[00:06:43] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I keep going, but my weakness and my vulnerability, if I see it in you, I’m creating a community. I’m creating all the other people like me. It’s okay to be that way.

[00:06:55] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And it doesn’t mean I’m not going to rise. I’m just over here right now.

[00:07:02] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah, isn’t this fantastic. So,

[00:07:05] Muhammad Kermalli: Nicole, thanks for joining us today. And I’m very, as usual, I’m curious to know. Yeah, yeah. We know about the today who it is, but I want to go kind of like back and, um, was it, was it South Africa that you were born, which city in

[00:07:21] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: South Africa? Johannesburg. It’s not the sexy part of South Africa, Cape town.

[00:07:25] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And that’s the sexy part.

[00:07:31] Muhammad Kermalli: is like

[00:07:32] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: amazing. It’s beautiful. And I always say, when God created the world, he created Cape town. First I went, ah, this is good. And then he created the rest of the world. Oh gosh, come

[00:07:41] Muhammad Kermalli: on. Um, I know some really good folks in, in Joburg and Durbin and Pretoria and the areas around that. Um, how long were you there before you moved to?

[00:07:52] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: We immigrated to Canada when I was 29. We had a little guy at first, so we immigrated to Canada. It was my husband, myself, my one year old and $5,000 and two suitcases. Oh.

[00:08:07] Muhammad Kermalli: So the, the Indian people say very similarly, but we say $5 instead of 5,000. It’s probably the same amount. Say five can with $5 in my pocket.

[00:08:16] Muhammad Kermalli: Look at me now.

[00:08:17] Triena McGuirk: Well, I was wealthy.

[00:08:22] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: did I have family? I had cousins. So we actually went to move to, you know, when you immigrate, um, you have to say in your application, which city you immigrating to. So our immigration papers and the stamp in our cow, whatever stamps we had said British Columbia, because we thought we’d go to British Columbia because apparently the weather was better and it was more temporary.

[00:08:44] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: We from South Africa when you’re not in good weather. So, uh, and then it was like, you know, we don’t know one person in British Columbia. And we had cousins at a very, very, one of my he’s like my, uh, my brother from another mother he’s, he’s a cousin of mine and his wife. Um, and they were here and I had my mom’s cousin here, so we had more of family here.

[00:09:06] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I thought we have to go somewhere away. We just have to have some support and some, yeah. Some routes. Exactly. So, um, yeah.

[00:09:15] Muhammad Kermalli: So what, um, got to you to think of moving outside of the sexy, the second sexiest part of

[00:09:22] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: it’s not even the second, but out it’s kind of the hump.

[00:09:29] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: A Pretoria is the Capitol. We got two capitals in South Africa. Everything’s different, but, and that’s probably as much as I can tell you about my, my memory of the history of South Africa, but, um, why did we. So we, first of all, my husband and I had nothing, you know, we, we, so we thought, well, rather go, if we’re going to, we knew we wanted to leave.

[00:09:50] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: There had been so much crime. Um, uh, our, my family had been involved in a terrible home invasion. I had been held up, uh, with a gun put to my head at the office. Um, there was so much crime and we thought, you know what, uh, we want to raise a family and, and we want to go to a country where, um, it’s going to be safe and we have nothing here.

[00:10:13] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So we may as well go start off with nothing there, um, and start creating a future for ourselves. So, um, it really was, I would say the crime, uh, that, that we said it’s, it’s time to go.

[00:10:26] Muhammad Kermalli: And so if, I guess we’re going to do this like backwards, then usually I start from the way back in. So I’m just going to keep going backwards.

[00:10:33] Muhammad Kermalli: But like, I’m wondering, yeah. Like there, as you’re growing up, you’ve had. Family around you in Johannesburg there fond memories there. Yeah. What’s like your earliest recollection of your fondest memories with you. Like where did Nicole start? The bare beginning?

[00:10:51] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So I had a great life in South Africa. Like I had a great childhood, like I don’t have any, you know, um, but when.

[00:11:03] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Everything made a great, um, I had all my family around me. We had a big family, there were always family gatherings. Um, I had a nanny who pretty much raised me. My mother was very involved. I came from a very involved family, but I had a nanny. Her name was Paulina who raised me as well. And for me the best things that night, Lord, she never, I don’t know.

[00:11:22] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: She, she must have loved me a lot because after her hard day in, in our house should go to a room and there, I was wanting to sit with her and eat her, eat her food, you know, and, and sit with her and she just word and, um, and you know, probably one of, uh, when I think about it, um, My grandmother was my, my hero.

[00:11:43] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Um, and she lived with us. So she, we had, uh, we had our house and then she, we bought an, a, a sort of second part of a house. So, um, I’ve just getting such warm feelings when I’m thinking about it. So there was a w we had this, a big family, our house was here and there was this huge, big family room. And then my grandmother’s house sort of was an extension of that.

[00:12:00] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And there was like a door and, you know, I actually used to lock that door

[00:12:09] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: and, uh, but I remember every morning I would rap on a dock and then actually would crawl out of bed and like, let me in. And then I would just snuggle with her and in her bed, it was still all warm, you know, but she was, um, The lessons I learned from her were unbelievable. And what I’m just thinking of one.

[00:12:28] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Now we had this very, very long driveway. And so it was apartheid. I mean, I, I grew up in apartheid. I didn’t know what was wrong. It was just, people were separated. And, you know, once when I said, why can’t I go on Paulina’s bus with her? And my mother just said, because you can’t, it was like, oh, okay. Because I can’t, and, and that was it.

[00:12:46] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And I was so upset cause I really wanted to go with Pauline on her bus and I wasn’t allowed to, you know, um, so they used to have rates, um, in rate. So, you know, were they weren’t because black people had to carry a pass with them. And if they were in an area where they weren’t allowed to be, then there would be in trouble.

[00:13:03] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So we lived next to a very big park and we have just a fence and then we had this long. And I remember I was paying it now we called it a garden. Um, which I suppose as a front yard in Indiana, I know a garden is a flower bed here. I’ve learned that. So

[00:13:21] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: and um, I remember, um, there was a rate happening in the park, right next, next, next to our house, you know, and I saw this, I didn’t know if it was a kid or not a kid, but I saw this person running up our driveway and I was like, so excited, you know, like something was happening at our house. So I chased this, this person running up our driveway to see where they were going.

[00:13:41] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Like, why were they so innocent? Right. Like why were they coming into. Eight eight years old. And, um, you know, and then the police are running behind this person and there’s this person running, there’s this person running up the driveway, I’m looking the Ray’s happening over there. Now police are running.

[00:13:59] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I can see them running out of the park, this person. So I chase that person. So it’s this person, me chasing that person. And then the police APAR driver flies into the yard and he goes, um, sort of, I knew he was right at the back of the automatic grandmother’s kitchen door was sort of right at the end. At the back of, we had the sort of big back yard.

[00:14:22] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I don’t know what else to call it. Right. It was concrete yard and he and my grandmother had one of those staple doors open at the top and close at the bottom. And, uh, I seen him fly around there. I seen fly around the, you know, into the whatever. And, uh, I fly in beside him, this, my grandmother, just, she at her table.

[00:14:43] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Cutting her vegetables or she’s doing whatever is that I look around and, and sort of, and she just goes, she goes like that to me, she just goes, oh, I think she may have just given me the look. Right. You know, you get that. Like I knew what it meant you needed. And, and the police officers arrive at the door and they said, we want to, or we sort of, somebody could come into your, and then see it.

[00:15:04] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: They said, somebody just came into your, your house. We want to, we want to search your permit. She goes, well, be my guest, open up the door, go in. And, um, They go into search and she, she quickly kicks her foot under the table and she tells scotch to run out because the police were now inside searching her house.

[00:15:22] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And she, she lets the sky go and they, they come out and they come back and they said, we know somebody came in and I’m just standing then, you know, because like, I don’t understand what’s going on. You know, that grandmother’s is lying to the police, you know? And I just saw him under the table. I didn’t see him on the table.

[00:15:40] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I saw him get out from under the table and then, you know, leave. So like, I am just confused and like, she’s not telling me to stand behind her because she’s probably really scared about my little big mouth about me, you know? So I kind of knew I had to keep quiet, you know, and they come up and say, we know somebody came into her house.

[00:15:59] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: She goes, yeah, You’ve looked and stopped you from looking, do you want to see under my table, there’s nobody here. And you know, they got very uptight and she said, well, I didn’t see an ad been standing here the whole time. I didn’t see anybody come in and off they go on a set, granny, you lied. And she said, I don’t lie.

[00:16:21] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I save somebody’s life. And like, for me, that was such a huge you know? And so those are sort of, those are the kind of the memories that I was just

[00:16:34] Triena McGuirk: because something’s a law doesn’t mean it’s right.

[00:16:37] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And that’s, that’s the thing, you know, people think, well, if the law says it’s right, it’s right. But it might not be right for your family.

[00:16:46] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Um, you know, in family law, particularly, you know, and there was, yeah, the law said that black people are bad and black people should carry passes around with them. Right. That’s not right. You know? So when I think of fond memories, I mean, yeah, I’ve got the usual beautiful memories, but for me, that was a, that was a really defining moment of who am I want to be.

[00:17:11] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I want to be that person. I don’t want to be the rule follower. And that, you know, that says, this is how you have to be like, no, she was right. She was right. Yeah. You know, she also did some other things that like, shit, like, I didn’t want him she’s passed on now. So I know she’s with me now watching, like she did stuff that was so rogue, you know?

[00:17:34] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So you know this grandmother. Oh

[00:17:42] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: yeah, yeah. Like, like 15, 15, she had to leave school because she came from a family. She was the, the night chart out of 10 parents. Really loved each other. Um, So she had to leave school, you know, so she left at 15. She honestly created an empire, like a business. So the business that she created was called the tablet Christmas club.

[00:18:09] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And so what it was, um, it was one of the first businesses, uh, I can’t say, I believe I could be wrong, but that was based on a catalog system. So at the beginning of the year, you would sign up to be part of the Talbot Christmas club. And then at the beginning of the year, you’d get a catalog of everything and it was blankets and crockery and, and what house and whatever you needed.

[00:18:31] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And it was a night by system. So the allowed black people to get whatever they want. So they could, they chose whatever they want off of the catalog. And it was the tower Christmas clubs. So you had a whole year to buy whatever it was. And then when Christmas time came, you got your big parcel of whatever it was that you were paying off, uh, of, uh, you know, and of course over the course of the year, Novel in those days.

[00:18:56] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I mean, that was 50 years ago, longer. Cause I’m 50. So it was, and it was done before I was, you know, and again, that was saying, we have to help people achieve their dreams, even if it’s in small increments, you know? So I didn’t know much about the tower Christmas club, other than I just always, you know, my mom had tons of stuff on the tower.

[00:19:19] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: There was always something from the tower, Christmas clubbing in our house, you know, but, um, oh, I forgot the question rogue. My grandmother wrote. Okay. So like other things it’s like, she wants to get money out of South Africa because she knew, I hope, I don’t think she’s passed on our side. Granny, I’m not getting into trouble.

[00:19:37] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I hope not. Uh, but you know, she, she wants, she knew she had to get mad. She just knew she had to get money. Actually, I had to start establishing something for her family outside of South Africa. And so she used to go and she used to smuggle diamonds in his cigarette. Uh, she would take all the black tobacco out of a cigarette and stuff, diamonds in, and then stuffed the tobacco back and walk through customs just without a care in the world.

[00:20:03] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And that’s how she smuggled money out of South Africa. She also wants to do a complete U-turn in front of a policeman, um, an illegal U-turn and he stopped. And she said, I never did it. And he said, I just saw, she said it couldn’t have been me. Like

[00:20:20] Muhammad Kermalli: this is happening.

[00:20:21] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: That’s that someone told me that story.

[00:20:23] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: They said, this is your grandmother. She didn’t, before she

[00:20:26] Muhammad Kermalli: talked to the policeman,

[00:20:27] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: this is other people telling me about how rogue she was and that how brave she was when they said she told it, literally did a U-turn in front of the traffic office, then told him he was. And convinced him that he made it wrong.

[00:20:40] Muhammad Kermalli: Do they call it traffic lights,

[00:20:42] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: robots in those days they still do robot robot.

[00:20:46] Muhammad Kermalli: Um, yeah, cause they look at the stuff I work with. They go, what do you call them? Traffic lights. I was like, oh, okay. What do you

[00:20:52] Triena McGuirk: call them?

[00:20:53] Muhammad Kermalli: So, um, so these are like, this is a great memory. Like this is a great beginning. When you’re young, you’ve got all this love around.

[00:21:00] Muhammad Kermalli: You really is what it is. And uh, so 8 29 you say there’s nothing in South Africa to stay for, um, and ready to leave. So along that line, like, um, there’s a lot of sort of experiences that kind of get you from there’s a lot of love here too. It’s time to go. Yeah. It wasn’t a switch one day it’s it’s gradual.

[00:21:23] Muhammad Kermalli: So you’ve got this family around and they’re doing where along the line does all, all this, like I’ve got all this B.

[00:21:34] Triena McGuirk: Yeah,

[00:21:35] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: an attachment, I guess. Yeah. I think it was, um, you know, when, when I got married and we were starting to think about starting our own family, um, and it was, this is not the place where I want to raise my kids.

[00:21:48] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I don’t want my kids to, I remember saying to my husband, I want to go, when we go to Canada, I want our kids to thank us for taking them out of a place that was so, um, you know, I want them to know that we colorblind, I want them, you know, I want our kids to thank us. And he said, I don’t want our kids to thank us.

[00:22:06] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I want them just to know that this just where we were like, they don’t have to thank us for taking them away. This is just the life that we created for them, you know? Um, and you know, when we’d go back, um, my boys honestly couldn’t understand the first black cause we used to go back every single year because I took them away from their family.

[00:22:27] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And that was the hardest thing about immigrating was, um, was. Birthdays were the hardest days for me because they didn’t have grandparents. They didn’t have my uncles. They did it. Yeah. All we had was each other. Um, you know, and so those were very sad, beautiful, like bittersweet days for me. Uh, so we used to go back every year until they were, I think my oldest was 14 when we stopped going back every year.

[00:22:53] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Um, but we’d go there and they couldn’t one day they said, why do you keep talking about black people? I only see brown people, you know? And I was like, oh, okay. That was just a realization for me. Like they didn’t get it. They couldn’t understand for them. Color was just color. Like people are just people like, um, so, but I think that’s the family that I was raised with.

[00:23:20] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: What was you? Can’t be a rogue and BR. You don’t have to follow. You can, you can be, you can be rogue. Like you don’t have to follow the path of, of, you know, they sit out for your, the definition of success. You can do things your way and be okay with it. And I wasn’t always okay with it because I don’t understand why no one chose me.

[00:23:40] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: What do you mean when I want to do get a job? You know, as, as a, you know, a low clock or articles or something like that, all my friends were getting jobs at these law firms known as choosing me. And I knew that I was smarter than some of them only academically, because my grades said I was smarter.

[00:23:59] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Doesn’t mean that intellectually, maybe I academically I was, you know, but I couldn’t understand why, why do people get better jobs than me? Like what what’s wrong with me? Um, and I realize now it was the best thing ever. I got a once in a meditation is that you can’t work for somebody. You’re always, you have to always, you always have to work for yourself.

[00:24:24] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: You have to do things for yourself. And it was that all my that’s that’s why it wasn’t, it wasn’t a, um, a punishment. It was my growth. Um, and I’m so glad because usually when I have worked for people, I’ve always felt like I’m a, you know, I’m a circle or I’m a triangle and around pigeonhole, I just don’t fit a hundred percent.

[00:24:44] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I like it there, but I just don’t fit properly. Um, and so even when I, I became, you know, I became a lawyer and I wanted to work for somebody. It was like, it wasn’t happening. So I’m fine. I’ll just open up a new practice.

[00:24:57] Muhammad Kermalli: So that’s what, but my dad, when that’s happening, you’re able to look at it. You look back on it.

[00:25:04] Muhammad Kermalli: And say this, but while you were going through it, it’s horrible.

[00:25:10] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I know. I suck. It’s like really, you know, like it’s horrible.

[00:25:20] Triena McGuirk: yeah.

[00:25:20] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Okay. So this is back in South Africa, back in South Africa, uh, was a whole nother story, trying to find a job here. Right. You know, but you know, when those things happen and, and. In the moment that it’s happening, why did I become a lawyer? I became a lawyer because there was nothing else I wanted to do not.

[00:25:37] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: There was, it was the only thing I wanted to do was like, oh, there’s nothing else to do. I might as well just try that. You know, it wasn’t like this burning desire to, to be a lawyer. It was, we went to an Australia when I was 18. Uh, um, sort of the rage was to go to this astrologer. Her name was Sharon Eisenmenger and everyone metric is our last year.

[00:25:58] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: That’s what we call grade 12 is metric in South Africa and everyone, everyone in their dark, we’re going to Sharon Eisenmenger because she could tell you what your career should be. Right. So she was an astrologer. So off we treated my mum and I off, we tried to, to share an ice and Hanker, and Sharon said to me, there are three jobs that are very clear cut for you.

[00:26:20] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: She said, um, she started off with, I think she started off with. I don’t know what order she did them in, but she said one, you could be a librarian.

[00:26:31] Muhammad Kermalli: Hmm. Looking at her, roll her eyes.

[00:26:42] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: the second one was you could work in a bank. I didn’t know, what’s in my bank account so that wasn’t going to happen. And then she said, oh, you could be a lawyer. You know? And she said, actually, the lawyer is probably the best thing she said, because when we looked back, she said, you’ve actually. I’ve done this many, many times.

[00:27:01] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: She said in, in your past lives, you’ve always been like a wise woman. You’ve been a judge. I’m like, this is actually where you meant to be. She said, those are the two you’ll be good at. But actually lawyer is you’ve. You’ve done this in so many past lives. So often it’s just where you, in fact, you said, you know, have you ever just opened up a book and said, I know what’s in this book, but you’ve never seen it back.

[00:27:24] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: We actually, guys, you probably wrote the book, you know? So she said, I was like, oh, okay, well there’s nothing else. I don’t want to be a banker. And at second don’t want to be a librarian. So, okay. If you say so I’ll be alone. That’s how, if it wasn’t for Sharon, maybe I would be a librarian. I dunno what I would be.

[00:27:43] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Sharon told me that’s what I have to be. So that’s what I became.

[00:27:46] Muhammad Kermalli: So you start off by somebody telling you what you’re going to be, and then you find yourself. People not accepting you for what Sharon said you’re supposed to be.

[00:27:56] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Um, I think people always accepted me. Um, oh actually we think that, because

[00:28:03] Muhammad Kermalli: you just said you couldn’t find the job at first,

[00:28:05] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: but I couldn’t find a job.

[00:28:07] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Not because I was a lawyer. There was just something about me that people didn’t want to hire me. But I actually think there was something about me that was, I didn’t want them to hide. So there’s no rejection when you’re 21 or 23 and everyone’s getting jobs and you not, you think you’re,

[00:28:28] Muhammad Kermalli: oh, you’re 18.

[00:28:28] Muhammad Kermalli: You go to see Sharon. Yeah. By 21 year old looking through.

[00:28:34] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: No. So, so know how does it work? Well, I’m 50 now. So this is

[00:28:42] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: those kinds of gaps. So yeah. I had to do at three years of an undergrad, right. Then two years of an adult be right. And then I, um, it was two years of articles, I think. So it was, it was like almost seven years or to get, could have been a doctor except that I’m not too keen on an anatomy. Um, so, so, so I, uh, I remember I didn’t want to get married until I got my law degree.

[00:29:10] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So I said to my husband, I’m not marrying you until I’ve got my law degree. Um, and I got married in was 24. So yeah, so I was 24 when, um, and I started looking for these jobs. Um, and I was so lucky I got married because I had these student loans and we got wedding gifts in the system has been, can I pay off my student loans without, without money anyway.

[00:29:32] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. I went from canned goods, you know, so that’s how I paid off my student loans. But, um, That’s one way to do it.

[00:29:43] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: um, so yeah, it’s 24, like a 24. You still don’t know who you are. You still, you know, is that how you felt the

[00:29:52] Muhammad Kermalli: 24, 24

[00:29:54] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I’m 50 sometimes figuring it out.

[00:30:02] Muhammad Kermalli: ’cause that’s not always what we hear. Right? So there’s, this, there’s a huge influencer in the community. Sharon doesn’t matter what the name is, but in this case, it’s Sharon. And I understand that because that happens in other places too, as in, in, for us back home, there were these sages that would be, you know, people who would go to for like the ultimate advice and they would set people on paths and, and there were, they met well, So that’s what everybody does.

[00:30:31] Muhammad Kermalli: So you,

[00:30:32] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: and I’m very grateful for Sharon. I’m so grateful for Sharon because Lord knows what I would’ve done. If Sharon didn’t tell me to be a lawyer. Um, but she was right. She was right. Right. Um, and, um, I’m so grateful for that. Cause I don’t know what else you and

[00:30:50] Muhammad Kermalli: Sharon talk about or do you just walk in?

[00:30:52] Muhammad Kermalli: And she said library and banker. Okay.

[00:30:55] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I’ve still got the thing. I don’t understand it. It’s just this round circle with all little things. Astrological reading. Yeah.

[00:31:03] Muhammad Kermalli: Reading that. Okay. You know, I remember parts of it because you’re just recalled some of

[00:31:06] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: it as well. I remembered what was important to remember.

[00:31:08] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Sharon said I ain’t going to be a lawyer. And what else you say? She, she said to me, um, interesting. She said to me, you’re never going to be wealthy, but you’re always going to have enough. Hmm. That’s a good place to be. That’s a good place to be really reassuring. Yeah. What is wealth anyway, you know, because the thing you can be a millionaire, but then you still chasing it to be a bigger millionaire.

[00:31:35] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Right? Yeah. And it’s so true. Like there’s been times where we really didn’t have anything, but I always had enough and times where we’ve done really well. And I had enough, you know? Um, yeah. I don’t know. I’m very grateful for Sharon.

[00:31:51] Muhammad Kermalli: So was there a time when you were trying to apply for these jobs and not getting them?

[00:31:56] Muhammad Kermalli: And of course you reflect on it and figure okay. In your meditation, which I’ll get to in a sec, but was there a time where you ever doubted what of Sharon was wrong?

[00:32:07] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Oh, wow. That’s a great question. No, because once I decided I wanted to be a lawyer, there was nothing else for me. It was that. I never let that creep in because I made my success and it was my success.

[00:32:25] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I was, you know, even when I started my own little law firm, really a little law firm, it was just me in South Africa. And someone took a chance on me to allow me to sort of rent an office from their space. Um, I was successful, you know, I may not have been a millionaire, but my name got out there and I was respected and you know, it was all word of mouth.

[00:32:49] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I never, I had no money to advertise or do anything. So it was word of mouth. Um, I, I, I, I would never look back and say, I sucked at anything, you know, in the moment possibly I did. But you know, when, when I look back, but of course the moments where you you’ve done what you’re doing, uh, you doubt, if you can make it, you, I don’t know anyone who says they’ve never doubted their lying, anyone who’s, you know, like.

[00:33:21] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Uh, well, I have clients next month. Yeah. You know, uh, when I pay my rent, um, some months it’s still close some months

[00:33:36] Muhammad Kermalli: we’re always on that. Yeah.

[00:33:38] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. You get used to it. And I think also it’s, you just have some kind of faith that it’s going to come. Yeah. And it usually does, you know?

[00:33:49] Triena McGuirk: Cause you, you feel like you’re doing something aligned with you too. Right? I think that helps when you’re doing something that aligns with what your passion is or what your purpose is, then it helps kind of squash the doubts.

[00:34:01] Triena McGuirk: But when you’re in a structure that’s not aligned with your passion and what you want to do, then the doubts I think can be amplified even more because you don’t just have to worry about, am I going to have the clients to pay the rent or. Sir, whatever, but am I going, like, I don’t feel good.

[00:34:18] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And then you look at, you look at other colleagues who seem to be ready, thriving and striving, and you think, you know, maybe I should have why didn’t I, you know, and it all goes back to the inner critic and it all goes back to some noodle trauma that happened to us as a child.

[00:34:38] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And I know I said I had a perfect life and I did, I’ve had no major traumas that I could go back to and say, this was terrible for me, but a small trauma that I only recently discovered that that defined how I thought of myself. Um, I had to unpack and redeveloped and it, it, it came only came to me last year.

[00:35:00] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Um, and so when I was in grade two, Uh, it was Mrs. Sandler who never tied. Like you need to know

[00:35:20] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: and the glasses and everything too. And actually she was young. She was young and blonde. I didn’t particularly like her, but she was good enough just my first teacher while, um, my second grade teacher, Ms. Taraq. She was a spinster best teacher ever. She had a magic carpet and if you didn’t understand anything, all you had to do was sit in the magic carpet and she’d come get you.

[00:35:47] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: It’s so beautiful. And it was like a carpet of no judgment. You didn’t care who was sitting on the carpet. You just saw something in the carpet. You knew miss Tara catcher get to them and you didn’t take Ms. attention away because someone’s on the magic carpet. Back to Mr. Simon grade one. So she had this thing on the board and she, you know, we had this huge, big Blackboard that like, kind of took the expense of the whole front of the classroom.

[00:36:10] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And on the one side she had like drawn like fire and flames. And on the other side, she had drawn little flowers, like paradise leaves. Beautiful. And we were having a spot test, a spot, um, math test grade one, right? So it’s one plus one, two plus three, three plus three, four plus three. I think we hadn’t got past 10.

[00:36:30] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: We were still only in units, 10. Like, you know, I want you to have three opportunities to answer three questions. And depending how you answered is where you would fit on this beautiful imagery that you create on the board. So she asked me the first question, I got it. Right. And she asked me the second question.

[00:36:51] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I got it wrong. So now third question. I’m not in the flowers. I get this one wrong. I’m in the fire. I’m scared. And so the question she asks is what is two plus three? And I’m so scared of being in the fire. And I didn’t know, I could use my fingers. I got it wrong. So I only got one question, right. And I must’ve started crying or something because you say to me, just one foot, I think she wrote our names.

[00:37:27] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: She said, just one letter, we’ll go in the fire. And the rest of it will be outside of the fire. Well, for me, I was in the fire. I was still in the fire. And for me, that defined me is that I’m not good at math. My entire life I’ve said I’m not good. In fact, I got kicked out of math class so often in high school, because if I was kicked out.

[00:37:49] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah, how could I learn? It’s not my fault. Let’s do a

seedling.

[00:37:52] Triena McGuirk: And then the flower, like the evolution of the plant, rather

[00:37:55] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: than fire, you didn’t give me, you’re going to have to ask me society. I don’t know where she gets now, but, uh, but those small things that was huge for me. It’s a big deal. It’s a big deal.

[00:38:06] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So my whole life, I was like, I’m not good at math. And so therefore I’m not good at math. I can’t be a doctor. I can’t be a whole psychologist. I can’t be a whole ton of other stuff because I said, I’m not going to do math at school are not good. So I gave up math for French, but that closed up a whole bunch of other opportunities for me,

[00:38:29] Muhammad Kermalli: a Sandler solar.

[00:38:31] Muhammad Kermalli: Was it the fear that got you to get the answer? Like

[00:38:36] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I don’t know. Could it be in the fair? Like I didn’t want to get in a fight,

[00:38:42] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: fight flight freeze. My brain was firing like, yeah. And know. I said you can use your fingers. Yeah. I didn’t really, maybe shouldn’t have to think you can use your fingers. Yeah. That’s

[00:38:55] Triena McGuirk: amazing. The power teachers have though run it cause I had different experience, but similar same thing. And I straight up chose my career because it had no math because I was bad at math and I wanted to be a psychologist, but I’m like, Nope, math can’t do it.

[00:39:10] Triena McGuirk: I’m not good at math. And it was like, it was just like no math.

[00:39:15] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. And then other things. So the school that I went to, um, a fantastic school, by the way, it was, it was a private school, a really good school. Um, but they streamed us very big into streaming. Okay. And so the word they used was education. So, um, if you were an ed and you, you crema for crop, best teachers, space, everything you can.

[00:39:36] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: That’s where the head boy is going to come from. Most of the prefects are gonna come. Best of everything, ed, CNA, but of everything. Good mix of people’s

[00:39:46] Muhammad Kermalli: CNA.

[00:39:46] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: What does it mean? That’s how they streamed you. That was the word that they screamed you. So the classes you are either in for something just education, the first letters of the word education EDU are the cream of the crop.

[00:39:58] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. So if you were so, and you were then in that class for the rest of your school career site, so if you were in one E you were going to be in two ed. So we, so we didn’t have grades, it was for one form to . Right? So you’d be in grade nine grade 10 E grade 11 in grade 12. And like, that was your class.

[00:40:20] Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah, we used to call it advanced here and then

[00:40:23] Triena McGuirk: basic and general.

[00:40:26] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. So, so we had, so the, the thing was, this was the same, like everyone had the same curriculum, but then there was sort of upper grade and lower grades. So, but streamed. Okay. So if you were sort of a really smart student, academically smart, you would either be in ed and you CNA kind of had a mixture of kids.

[00:40:46] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Right. And then T I N O a visitors get you through high school. And then Anne was remedial. So Ann was where we had kids with, with, um, learning, like real learning disabilities and, and, and all of that. So I was in a, so I was in, you know, could have gone either way, but I thought I was mediocre because that’s how they streamed me.

[00:41:08] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: That’s who my school told me that I was, I was mediocre. I didn’t belong in ed and. And funny enough. So many of the guys that were in the T the T T I and O class like millionaires, right.

[00:41:26] Triena McGuirk: Millionaires.

[00:41:27] Muhammad Kermalli: And then we also, because of the streaming, we sometimes also antagonize the other groups because we

[00:41:33] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: have this, oh, you hang out in, in your group, your community a hundred percent

[00:41:41] Muhammad Kermalli: and, or whatever, or whatever, it’s all going on in the back of your head as that’s happening.

[00:41:47] Muhammad Kermalli: Right. Yeah.

[00:41:48] Triena McGuirk: The division though, right from the beginning, like we’re just automatically divided and divided and divided into these groups when there’s like, it’s like, why are they not connecting and connecting and connecting people like there’s more similarities and there’s differences. And I just, I get so upset when I just hear all of the ways we’re dividing and labeling.

[00:42:09] Triena McGuirk: People when there’s such experience and richness, because the streaming doesn’t work. It doesn’t, I’ve seen it with my own kids. Right? Yeah. My one son was told, um, he would never go to university in grade eight and you can’t do this. You’re not going to, you’re not going to be successful. Don’t take advanced classes in high school.

[00:42:27] Triena McGuirk: I’m like, he’s like, mom, I really want to go university. I’m like, dude, you’re going to be fine. Like take all the vans classes. He got a scholarship. My other kid, he has serious learning disabilities, but he’s very, he gets things really quickly. Once he’s got a skills in order, you know, he’s told old grade applied, like he’s in high school now and he’s made the honor roll right last semester.

[00:42:47] Triena McGuirk: And they’re like, oh, go to university, university, university. And it, every day it changes one day. He’s a carpenter. Next day is electrician. And now he’s taking a gap year to play the stock market. And I’m like, dude, you’re going to be successful. No matter what. Yeah. Yeah. He’s the kid in grade. And when he’s in grade one, He told his teacher because he couldn’t read and he had a stutter and a speech impediment and all this stuff.

[00:43:08] Triena McGuirk: And I was right there and he told her, he’s like, I don’t need to learn from you. I already have a job family business. Right. And he wasn’t wrong, but it’s just like, it’s just, they have such influence on us at such early ages and like, look at like, how would, I know you’ve had similar experiences with your school stuff?

[00:43:29] Triena McGuirk: Like all of us, like it’s so impactful. Yeah. What it does.

[00:43:34] Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah. All this time as you’re growing up. But what I see as a, as a common theme is that you’re seeing systems and systems and systems and systems that tell you what you are and what you should think and what you should be.

[00:43:59] Muhammad Kermalli: And I was not, uh, and I’m grateful for that, right? That I didn’t walk. Uh, it’s funny. My son tells me this now, as I go, he goes, you use a term a lot. And I’m like, what do I say? He goes, you refer to them as smart people, but you say it in a really derogatory way. I go ahead and get smart people to tell me what to do.

[00:44:19] Muhammad Kermalli: He was like, what do you say that about smart people? And I go, because I look around and I go, I’ve been told that I’m not smart by people who then are defining smart. And they run the world and now I’ll go look at the state of the world. They’re so smart. And why is the world the way it is? Yeah. So I got this thing for smart people.

[00:44:47] Muhammad Kermalli: So, you know, like that’s my thing. So I’m like, yeah. You know, um, when somebody walks in and goes, because I got this qualification, I’m going to tell you how it is and they go, you don’t know you’re this or that. And you’re going to tell me because you’re qualified. So you could be a lawyer, you could be an accountant, a doctor or whatever.

[00:45:08] Muhammad Kermalli: And so even I am so, um, sensitive to it that I actually watched for this so carefully. Like I do not believe in putting a title on your business card. For example, I watch for when somebody introduces themselves as I am a, this, I go, wait, stop. What are you? Yeah. Well, how is it that they’re not funny? So I’m Uber sensitive to that, but I’m just listening to kind of like your story and that’s why.

[00:45:33] Muhammad Kermalli: I love your, your, your, the way that you’re, you’re taking what’s happened from your grandma to her being rogue. You call it. I love that. My, my, my, my Callaway, my clubs today that I play in golf, they’re called rogues by the way, keep them because they’ve say rogue so crazy. So, but anyway, I just noticed this

[00:45:54] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: pattern

[00:45:55] Triena McGuirk: with you.

[00:45:56] Triena McGuirk: Look at that.

[00:45:58] Muhammad Kermalli: You just keep you seeing systems after systems, after systems. What I’m wondering is as while you’re going through it, and you realizing this, that these are systems, are you formulating thoughts in your mind at that time, or are you just trying to get. I

[00:46:12] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: think just trying to get by. Yeah. You just, you just get by and getting put down by the system and then saying then just going, well, the systems aren’t working for me, I just have to do it myself.

[00:46:24] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. So hold

[00:46:24] Muhammad Kermalli: on. So you see that part right there, where you go, the system’s not working for me. So I got to do it by myself. That didn’t happen in one moment. You talked about having, going through meditation, you were doing some meditation, so, right. Like you had a moment that you just made that decision right now, you made this formulation, you said it’s not working for me.

[00:46:43] Muhammad Kermalli: So I got to do it myself. That doesn’t happen

[00:46:46] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: just on you can in a way it does happen. Because if, you know, if, if you’re applying for job after job, after job, after job, and you’re not getting it, then you just start your own business. That’s going against the system, the system that said we don’t want you, which

[00:47:02] Muhammad Kermalli: you didn’t do, which others do is like, I’m not good enough.

[00:47:07] Muhammad Kermalli: And did they spiral the other way? You went the other way. You didn’t say you didn’t say, oh, I’m not good enough. You said I got to start my own business, but you could have

[00:47:17] Triena McGuirk: said you started your own business with thoughts that you weren’t.

[00:47:20] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I thought about business, not those are not good enough. I started my own business with I’m just going to do it.

[00:47:28] Triena McGuirk: Yeah. You know, I gotta work, so they’re not hiring me. So I’m going to create work. Never

[00:47:33] Muhammad Kermalli: once thought that you were not good enough to know

[00:47:35] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: something. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, so I, um, when I had my articles, because again, I wasn’t getting articles. You know, my friends were getting, going to law firms and getting articles and my mother and, um, my parents, not my mother, my parents were getting divorced.

[00:47:51] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Um, when I was, oh, it started a long time. But when I was sort of looking for articles, my mother, um, had gone to her divorce lawyer. And so she said to divorce, my daughter needs articles. He said, okay, I’ll take her like that. That’s how I got articles right now. This guy. Oh, my Lord. He’s he’s passed on. He, he was rogue, but of completely the other way.

[00:48:16] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So he wanted to be a doctor and his parents. I don’t know why would a reason he couldn’t be a doctor. So he became a lawyer, but he really wants to be a doctor. So he loved medical malpractice, but for himself, not for other people. Okay. So he was a big hypochondriac. Like if he had a headache, his eye, he thought his eye was falling out.

[00:48:36] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: You know, if you stopped his toe, his leg had to be amputated. Like always went to the other end, but he was such a beautiful human being, um, a terrible, a very, very, very smart guy. And he was so good to me in some ways and so bad for me and other ways. Um, but he was my auntie role. Right. And role models and auntie role models play the same role.

[00:49:04] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: You know, your auntie role model says, I want to learn how I don’t want to practice. And I’m so grateful for him. And he was such a beautiful, special human being, but he got so caught up in his own drama that it would cloud his vision with, with everything else. And then he would do things that were ridiculous.

[00:49:23] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: But I stood up to him the one time and I remember walking to his office and shouting at him because he had done something so bad and so wrong. Um, and I remember going in and, but he respected me for that.

[00:49:36] Muhammad Kermalli: Um, you walked in to that. Yeah. What was your thinking? Uh, walking in. Would it be fire would be flowers.

[00:49:46] Muhammad Kermalli: Oh

[00:49:46] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: yeah. He had anxiety so much. It was pure brute blood curdling, red anger. There was no straight to the fire. There was no repercussions that I was like, I don’t care what the repercussion is. Yeah. You know, you had to speak your truth. I had to speak my truth and I stormed out, like, I was a big drama. You didn’t

[00:50:06] Muhammad Kermalli: skip a

[00:50:06] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: word.

[00:50:07] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Right. Like, no, I actually just think you just stood there. And then I did the big Huff and flung my head and walked up and said, and I’m going for the day. And I drove away. Um, he apologized to me and he was wrong. And I actually think, he said, maybe you need to vacation. You know what? This is

[00:50:26] Triena McGuirk: about this.

[00:50:28] Muhammad Kermalli: I just think it’s interesting.

[00:50:29] Muhammad Kermalli: Cause I’m talking to you today for the first time. But I, I, I see the, the first great experience where, you know, there’s, there’s an authority figure and there is. And then there is that you’re one foot in the fire. Yeah. And then there’s fast forward to, by this time, according to chronology, you should be 27, 28 at this time.

[00:50:52] Muhammad Kermalli: And there’s no fear. Uh, and there’s no fire.

[00:50:58] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. That’s it there’s a fire, but I want my hand

[00:51:04] Muhammad Kermalli: was coming from you. Like, you know, you, you were the fire, like you were the storm, as they say, like, you know, like you were the storm, not that the storm is coming and you’re not going to make it one of my other favorites things, but you’re the storm and you became the storm.

[00:51:17] Muhammad Kermalli: And, um, I think there’s something there about that. Um, something about a warrior one, I I’ll I’ll figure it out later, but it, yeah, it’s the, the devil whispered to the warrior and said, right, the storm is coming and you will not survive. And the w the warrior whispered back to the devil. I am the storm. I love that.

[00:51:38] Muhammad Kermalli: That is one of my, I keep it up there, but I just see the, I see that interesting. And your, your grandma’s strength kind of starting to really develop into. As your reference point, right. And that takes you to this point in our last discussion we had with somebody, he called that leverage, like you find your leverage and your grandma was you’re like,

[00:52:00] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I think, you know what?

[00:52:01] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: The one thing about my grandma and it wasn’t just me. It was all her grandchildren. She would light up. When you walked into a room, a Saquon, you walked, like we would all visit her. Like if we had spare time, we would go. And because then she moved into our own place cause we moved out or whatever. Um, and so we would randomly just go visit her and you’re not going to watch it light up.

[00:52:20] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So you’ve just made her entire day. And all of us felt that way. Like it was when you just by being there. And when I got married, I, I gave her a dedication and, and you know, it was, this is one, this is how I felt about my grandma is, you know, there was. Girl was walking with her grandma. And, um, they were walking in and there was a shadow in her shadow was very small.

[00:52:43] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And she said to grandma, look at my shadow. It’s so small. And grandma, I said, but you’re looking at it the wrong time of day. Hm. Because you know, no, no, it was the other way around. She said, ah, look how small look, how big my shadow is. And I’m so small. And she said, but she looking at it wrong time of day, because you’re always bigger than your shadow.

[00:53:03] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And that was my grandmother. She always made me feel like I was bigger than my shadow in whatever decision I made. And I think when you’ve got just one person at that in your life that says, I don’t see your shadow, I see you when you, bigger than that shadow, that belief does. You just need one person to in your life that instilled that in you, that it will push you.

[00:53:27] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And, and my grandma was that person.

[00:53:31] Muhammad Kermalli: That’s amazing that you had somebody like that. A lot of people, sometimes they don’t find that person around them for whatever circumstance. What do you say to those people in terms of their shadows and themselves, but your grandma for a second?

[00:53:46] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. Oh, I like, I think I have to, if she’s here, just come and she’s going to figure it out yourself.

[00:53:57] Triena McGuirk: is we all have it though. Even if we don’t have someone there to tell it, I think just our shared humanity tells you that just by the fact that you’re a human

[00:54:06] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: being,

[00:54:07] Triena McGuirk: your shadow is not bigger than you

[00:54:10] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I’ll have shadow. The shadow doesn’t exist. It only exists at certain times because at night you’ve got no shadow, you know?

[00:54:19] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Um, oh, I like that. You know, but I think like, what would I say to somebody who doesn’t have that one person. Then maybe they just have to be their own person and find the strength to believe in themselves. And it’s hard. Like it’s easy to roll off my tongue. Right?

[00:54:37] Muhammad Kermalli: Well, it’s kind of like what you said earlier.

[00:54:39] Muhammad Kermalli: If nobody’s willing to hire you, then you just got to open up your own cup. Nobody’s going to be there to say the C, then you just gotta say it to yourself and you gotta be your own.

[00:54:47] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. No one wants to hire me for articles as well, because the law society had said to me, you know, I sort of did my accreditation, my conversion.

[00:54:57] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And then they said, instead of doing however long articles, like here, nine months a year, I don’t even know how long articles are here. They said you only have to do three months that we’ve gone to a bridge your articles because of your experience and all of that. But no one wants to hire you for three months because in those three months generally is where they teach you everything.

[00:55:15] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And then you pay them back for the rest of your times. So who’s going to hire you for three months. So there again, I’m going, what am I going to do? And I didn’t know that you such a learning curve, right? Just the grades that I got in South Africa had to be weren’t the equivalent to the grades in Canada.

[00:55:33] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So I didn’t know, there’s an equivalency chart. I had to do a conversion. So if people, if I just, people just saw my grades because. The education system is very, very high. The standards are very, very high in South Africa. So to get over 75% at university, pretty much means you have to be a genius. It’s very hard to get over some.

[00:55:52] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And I lectured and I, and I used to write, you know, mark exams and, and my lecturer, my boss said to me, make it very easy for them to get 50% to whatever you can. The second day 50, you don’t give out grades unless they deserve them. So in that, that was the marking strategy that, that we had to use. So when I got 77, 78, 1 or 2 83, so 84.

[00:56:18] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And Canada that go, oh yeah. Yeah. It’s not poor thing. You know, your sweet, sweet woman, you know? Um, I didn’t know that I had to, that there was a whole equivalency thing that I had to, so when I would give my transcripts to all firms, yeah. It was not, you’re not really the candidate for us until I learned that.

[00:56:39] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Um, and apparently you don’t just walk in and in South Africa, it’s, it’s such a different culture and community you’d walk in and say, Hey, can I just quickly hand this to the managing partner? Because it was important that they saw a face to the name. You don’t do that in Canada. You know? So I did that and I upset a few lawyers because I insisted that I see the managing partner going wrong.

[00:57:01] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Um, and so, so I had to learn. So eventually when I wasn’t getting articles and it wasn’t doing it, I had to think I had to restructure, how do I get it? How do I do it? You know? And. Somebody said someone, it was Andrew Feldstein. He’s a lawyer in York region in, in market. And someone said, he’s looking for a low clock.

[00:57:22] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And I said, oh, I sent him my resume and I’ll be as low clock. And I don’t care like for how long it is. If it’s for a year, I worked for a year, but three months is I said to him, so I had an interview with him and I said, I work for as long as you need me to work for you. But three months you have to mark off as articles.

[00:57:39] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And so we, we came to an agreement and it was good, you know? So you have to, you have to be creative. You can’t let the door close on you. And so I don’t know what to do. It’s like, okay, it’s not working for me. How do I make it work? So you have to go into the back door. Sometimes the back door is the great is the best entrance.

[00:57:55] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Cause no one’s expecting you. Yeah. And so you can’t let these things get you down. I

[00:58:02] Triena McGuirk: was wondering if you could go back to, cause you said a while ago, one of the reasons you left South Africa was because of the violence and that you had a gun placed on you. Yeah. Um, and that was one of the pivotal moments.

[00:58:16] Triena McGuirk: Could you walk through that and what that makes, I know I’ve seen something written about it. So I have some insight into this. I saw something you wrote about this recently. Yeah. And, and it, um, it was really quite powerful. Right. And I think there’s a lot of, um, there’s a lot of compassion and there’s a lot to learn from that.

[00:58:36] Triena McGuirk: Yeah, yeah.

[00:58:38] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. So, um, and that actually, I’m going to just quit this lot at the end. Uh, sort of what happened. There was a portal for me. Um, and I didn’t realize I’d walked through a portal until a few years later, but that was an opening for me. That moment was that moment was an opening for me that, um, I want to say 26.

[00:59:02] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. Mid twenties. Cause I didn’t have kids yet, so I must have been. And I still with Peter, so solar, that was the name of my boss. So, uh, yeah. Okay. Not important.

[00:59:18] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so I was still doing my articles anyways. So this particular law firm that I worked for, uh, we had a lot of, um, clients who had no money and so they’d have to get legal aid. So what would happen is I would come in, um, and that they did have to pay like a small deposit. So it was like 300 grand.

[00:59:37] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So like, it was like $30 or something that they had to just pay and then they would, you know, they would get the legal act. So, um, the, the law firm that I worked in wasn’t. So there was sort of a reception area sort of you walked in or was it a reception area? And then to the left was what would have been the formal lounge was now resection and then the rest of the piece, once you walked the other way, it was like an L-shape.

[01:00:02] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So my office was at the end of the L sort of the, sort of the last office off the elder and this sort of out corridor. So these, these people had come the day before I had seen these people, but they’d come the day before, uh, for saying that they needed legal aids. The receptionist said, yeah, the forms complete the forms, come back with your money and then we can open up a file for you.

[01:00:23] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So the next day she saw. She recognized them. And so she opened up the gates because there were gates and you had all of those things, electric gates. And then so she busted them in and as she passed them in six armed men came in and it was, it had been a whole setup to be able to come in someday. So the, the day that come before was just checking everything out, like trust, get the trust, see what’s in, see what exactly see what’s there, who’s there, whatever it is.

[01:00:54] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Um, so they came back, she, and, and she let them in, I don’t know any of this is happening. So I’m sitting at the office and I shared an office with another, with another low clock and we’re sitting there and I can hear like really weird noises happening. And it sounds like a AMUIC like somebody’s crying, but it was like just a really weird sound like I could, it was didn’t sound human.

[01:01:17] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And I was like, what is going on in that? There was scuffling. And I was like, I was like, What is going on. So there, because I’m curious, you know, I, I say to the other one, I’m just going to go see what’s

[01:01:29] Muhammad Kermalli: going on running back to the back of the yard. You just follow them,

[01:01:32] Triena McGuirk: curious, you know, it’s exactly.

[01:01:37] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So I get up and, uh, uh, there were just so many weird things that happened that day, but I get up. And so, so the view is constant, but so it’s like this. Okay. So my office is here is a washroom here and there’s an L-shape and then they’ll have two offices sort of over there. And the reception area is, is over here.

[01:01:57] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So you can cut. So I walked down and I, and I can see this. I can see two legs on the floor, out of the office, and I can see two men standing over the legs. And again, I’m not even thinking that’s weird. Yeah, that’s interesting. Like I’m not even thinking, like what could it be? Like no danger yet. And so I don’t want to interrupt them.

[01:02:19] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So I want to go behind them to surprise them, to say, what’s going on. I want to get a better angle of what’s happening. Like for me in did somebody faint? Like, I’m not thinking anything else. Like I just, I want to go see, so I go running, I got my hands on my hips. Right. Cause I’m rogue what’s going on here.

[01:02:39] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Okay. And all of a sudden, I just feel I’ve gotten on my tent pole. Okay. And I look, and there’s a sky and I’m wearing this. Um, I was like, okay, now I realize that I am in the middle of an armed robbery. So they pivot to me so that I can now, because I just, I didn’t know, there was a gunmen behind me, so they picked me.

[01:03:00] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So now the gunman’s right in front of me and it’s not somebody standing behind me. And they want, um, they want to, they want to tie my hands up. Okay. They want to tie my hands, but I couldn’t do it because I’m wearing this leather jackets. And so the leather jacket is not allowing me to get my hands behind, behind my back.

[01:03:18] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: So they tell me to take the leather jacket off. So as I take the, I take the leather jacket of it as I’m sort of taking my leather jacket off, I take my engagement grip off. My finger was like, my husband paid a lot of money for this ring and you’re not going to have it. So as they took my, they took my jacket off.

[01:03:35] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I took my ring off sharp the ring in my mouth, and I thought, I’ll just keep it in my mouth. And, you know, until anything happens, they taught me up and they shoved me into this room. And I walked into the room. My hands are tied behind my back and the ring is in my mouth and I look at the one corner and the one receptionist is just.

[01:03:57] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: She’s she’s become comatose. Like she’s talking to soothers, she’s rocking it. Like her eyes are just staring. She’s rocking to Sue the self, I think. Okay. That doesn’t look good. Okay. And then I look on the other corner. Like I can just see it right now as afraid

[01:04:11] Muhammad Kermalli: at all at this point, like you seem to be pretty conscious of what others

[01:04:15] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: are.

[01:04:16] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I’m just observing, like maybe I’m on adrenaline, right. I’m just observing what’s happening. And the other corner, uh, on the floor, the one, the receptionist to let them in is in the fetal position, her pencil, which is Peter pens. And I look at that and then over there, there’s another con man, who’s, who’s in charge of us now.

[01:04:39] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And I look at him and he sees his hand is shaking like that, you know? And I think, oh my God, like, then it was like, okay, this is serious. And. They’ve come in. Somebody has already come in and taken off, taken off our watch and think, oh, you didn’t get my ring. Like, I’m feeling very smack about myself because my rings my mouth, but he starts talking to me cause he wants to say where he says, where are the keys to your car?

[01:05:03] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Now I have to talk, but I got my ring in my mouth. So I decided I’m just going to swallow my ring. Okay. Right. And it was touring. So it was a little, a little, a little wedding band and, and, and, and this big clunky, which I’ve redesigned, but the countrymen, um, and I swallow big, deep swallows, but the little band turns as I’m swallowing and I start choking.

[01:05:27] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Oh, no. Okay. And I’m literally thinking I’m either going to die or I have to split the. Which is either way, not a good result. Okay. So literally sit, just keep swallowing, just keep swallowing. And I swallow, they go down and am I going okay? What goes in? Must come out. I’m just, you know, simple logic. And now that I’m alive, I’ve swallowed.

[01:05:51] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And I say to them, my car keys are in my briefcase that the other goes out. And I look at this guy and he’s so scared. The guy, man is so scared. And all of a sudden, the sec blanket, it felt like this blanket of protection just came over me and it said, you’re going to be okay. And I looked at the sky, this poor gun man.

[01:06:17] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And I felt such compassion for him and such forgiveness. And I just knew he didn’t want to be there either. And so I said to him, I forgive you. And he looked at me and he said, what. That’s okay. I forgive you. And he started crying and he said to me, you have to forgive me, but I don’t want to be doing this, but I have to feed my family.

[01:06:44] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And I was promised money if I was part of this. And we just started talking to each other as, as human beings and there was such compassion and it honestly was one of the most beautiful moments of my life. I don’t even know how long it took, but there was, I couldn’t hate him. I couldn’t be scared of him.

[01:07:04] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I couldn’t, you couldn’t see yourself in him. Yeah, that’s it like, we just saw each other. Both of us didn’t want to be here. Both of us were here, was beyond our control. And suddenly some guy said, let’s go. He looked at me, ran out. And that was it. And I was in such control after. I went to check on the people I went to see what is happening.

[01:07:30] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: I went back to my office and the other lawyer was oblivious. She didn’t even know what had been happening in the whole time, like why you did what, what I was so in control of everything. And other reason what happened is one of the men came, came back and he actually got hit over the head. He ex became brain damaged as a result, but the police came and I was fine.

[01:07:50] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And I remember calling my mother and my husband. And you know, when you get that call I’m okay. But, um, and I held it together until my husband walked through the door. And the second I saw him. I was like just jelly. Right. Um, but I saved my ring. The rings came

[01:08:11] Triena McGuirk: up. Let me tell you,

[01:08:14] Muhammad Kermalli: tell you

[01:08:17] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: w w one thing I do want to tell you, because if ever, if ever you need diamond sparkled, stomach acid, and they make diamonds, it never sparkle as much as they did after I had to clean them.

[01:08:35] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Right. But let me tell you, there’s an upside. Yeah. You can’t offer same day service back to they’ll get a sparkle

[01:08:45] Triena McGuirk: dust, the job.

[01:08:48] Muhammad Kermalli: Oh, Nicole. Um, so it’s interesting because in our family we’ve also had an armed robbery as well. I wasn’t there for it. And I wished that I was because it was, it was connected.

[01:09:02] Muhammad Kermalli: How they got there was connected to me. I was selling something from home, like laptops, that’s the first things. Then they came for that, but I wasn’t home at that time. So I want it to be, you know what I mean? Like, yeah. And my dad is like, uh, the good thing you weren’t. And I was like, no, I really felt like I didn’t want it to be there for them and help them.

[01:09:23] Muhammad Kermalli: And he’s like, yeah, look at it this way. If you were there, who knows? Cause I wasn’t, well, I wouldn’t, I didn’t do the compassion thing that you did. Uh, you know, I’d be like, okay, these are all guys are on one side, we’re on the other, let’s sort this out or something. Um, but it’s like, when you look at all of these like events, it’s interesting.

[01:09:43] Muhammad Kermalli: Now I understand like what shapes, you know, and what motivates and where your passion comes from to do what you do, you know today, um, from grandma to Sharon to being robbed and having that moment, like the, the bill.

[01:10:01] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: And I think that’s, you know, what I mentioned was a portal back when I just had this, it was like a blanket that just covered me full to me and said, you’re going to be okay.

[01:10:12] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Like, there was just no doubt in my mind that I was going to survive this. I was the most beautiful feeling. And I said, that’s a portal because I never tapped into it again until many, many, many years later, I was like, oh, I get it. Yeah.

[01:10:26] Muhammad Kermalli: Quite often it’s like that. Yeah. So when you reflect back on that, tell me something from the person who was, I just find this to be two really interesting points that the person who couldn’t add two plus.

[01:10:39] Muhammad Kermalli: Who was told that they write to having,

[01:10:43] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: you never told me I wasn’t smart. I told myself I wasn’t smart. She in fact was being compassionate by not putting me in the fire. Just one foot, just one letter. Right. You know, but I told myself a story based on that. And then I believe the story. So sorry I brought your,

[01:11:03] Muhammad Kermalli: oh, well, this is what I was hoping to kind of uncover for people is that as you speak to it, a lot of us find ourselves in that moment, that same moment where we’re paralyzed, you described people in the room who were paralyzed at another point.

[01:11:18] Muhammad Kermalli: I see very little difference between them and that kid who couldn’t add up to five. Yeah. So not only have you been that person you’ve been in the room with a person like that as well, years later, and the, that iteration of yourself looks out for those. Yeah, but you were that person at one moment, whether you were told that, or you told yourself that you were that, and you then found your way out to that, what would you say?

[01:11:45] Muhammad Kermalli: Um, like what is the one or two things that you would point to, to say, this is what got me through from that perspective of talking myself into not being good at math, to having a blanket over me, that everything’s going to be okay. What would you say are like the one or two sort of things that, that, that are your, your biggest sort of like, um, you know, the things that you’ve learned or the things that you’ve, you’ve come to become aware that these are the things that well, there’s you look back on

[01:12:14] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: it?

[01:12:17] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Um, I think just, you’re always going to be okay. I could have died, but I turned it around and that’s the thing, you know, when I teach my. You only need one mindful person in a room to change the entire room. I was that person in that armed robbery because who knows what would’ve happened. If I would have reacted or cried or made him even more nervous or spit out my rings or condemned him for his behavior, condemned him, put out hatred instead of love, like who knows?

[01:12:54] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: You know? So, um, I think that’s, I think

[01:12:59] Muhammad Kermalli: put out love that’s another one.

[01:13:00] Triena McGuirk: Yeah.

[01:13:02] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Um, kindness. Um, so I think the evolution really, when, when I think like Sharon was right, you always going to, you’ve always going to have enough, whatever enoughness is at that point in time, you’re always going to have enough bet enough smarts be had enough kindness, be enough money.

[01:13:23] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: You always have enough enoughness if you can. Ground yourself and well, what do I really need right now? Does that, does that make sense? I think that’s looking back maybe, um, what I get from all of this, like I’ve never not had enough,

[01:13:41] Muhammad Kermalli: even at the moment when you felt that it wasn’t enough that you weren’t enough, you still had it enough then,

[01:13:48] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: because I think we define, well, what is enough is enough money, you know, as society says, you own a successful, if you’re rich, but I’ve got enough compassion and love and forgiveness and kind of meat to your,

[01:14:03] Muhammad Kermalli: so even in that moment, when, when it wasn’t enough for you, then you, you, you didn’t, you weren’t good at math that you were telling yourself, you still had enough, then have something else.

[01:14:13] Muhammad Kermalli: Right? Yeah.

[01:14:16] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: You know, I’ve always, I think just my grandmother always said to me, you were always that person who brought kids home, who no one wants to be friends with. You know, um, she always said that about me. She said you didn’t care. What other people thought about other people you went, you saw those people being targeted.

[01:14:34] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: You went and became friends with those, with those people. Um, so I think, and it’s hard sometimes. I’m not saying I always was, I want money. Everybody wants money. And I think we have to change our money’s not bad and it’s not bad to say I want money. Sure. Um, but I think I’ve always known that if I haven’t had money, I’ve had enough compassion.

[01:14:57] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Like there’s, there’s, it doesn’t define me. Like there’s enough of me that says you’re okay. You’re good enough. And I think I’m able to tap into that sometimes, or people will tell me that just randomly. And then that builds my bank. When I, when I need to withdraw.

[01:15:20] Muhammad Kermalli: I call that life credits.

[01:15:22] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah.

[01:15:23] Triena McGuirk: She

[01:15:24] Muhammad Kermalli: got a whole banking system on life grads, but, um, thank you for that.

[01:15:29] Muhammad Kermalli: That is, that’s an amazing, um, like journey to take you to where we are, which I think is like a whole other episode on, you know, what you’re doing, what you’re doing right now is so amazing. Um, but now I understand like the, you know, Nicole, the making of this, this person who is like breaking sides, And bringing change.

[01:15:56] Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah.

[01:15:58] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: God, I like me.

[01:16:07] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: it’s so funny. When, when, when we first met today, you said new people walk here. I think out of your thinking, I did not expect that. I was like, yeah, of course. That’s what he said, but it it’s so true because like, wow. Like you’ve given me a whole perspective of me that I kind of thought I knew, but no, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve actually put it in.

[01:16:25] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Like you’ve put in a beautiful book named Nicole with a gorgeous cover that can just

[01:16:33] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: volumes 13.

[01:16:37] Muhammad Kermalli: I think there are beautiful stories in so many people out there. And quite often we just like, I think just go over it very quickly. Not even realizing that it is an amazing story. And in that story, I just see so much inspiration for so many other things. Yeah. And what happens is a lot of people don’t share that story.

[01:16:56] Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah. And they feel like, um, because in there, there are some, you know, moments of, you know, there’s doubt, there’s fear, there’s vulnerability and all those things. And it’s even harder for somebody like you because you are also, you have this persona as well out there, you know, of who you are to your clients.

[01:17:12] Muhammad Kermalli: And gosh, what if they don’t see me as like, oh my God, I don’t have it together all the

[01:17:17] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: time. Yeah. I don’t not have it all, but you’ve got me in a very good day, but you know what? I think the key is the one thing I’ve always said about myself is that I actually like myself. Like if somebody said to me, Hey, do you want to be Nicole’s finical?

[01:17:31] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. I do want to be Nicole’s friend. Like if I had to meet me, I’d want to be my friend. And a lot of people don’t want to be their own friends. And I think

[01:17:39] Triena McGuirk: when I’m hearing you speak something, I say to kids a lot is when they tell me their, their negative self-talk right. That inner kind of critic in their head.

[01:17:49] Triena McGuirk: Okay. That’s exactly it. I said, would you talk to your friend like that? Would you, if you use those words and pretend I’m your friend on the playground and would you use those words? Like, no, I wouldn’t want to say that to someone. And I’m like, why, why wouldn’t you say that to me? And then they explain all the reasons why, and I’m like, then why do you say it to yourself?

[01:18:08] Triena McGuirk: Right. I think that’s like, that’s just a little kids, but I think that’s so important for all of us. Right? Like be your own friend. You’re okay. Like you got it, right. Like you’re good enough and be kind to

[01:18:19] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: yourself. And when you have those moments, like when you put down the phone back there, say you had a really successful telephone call and you go go me, you know, like you don’t sit with it.

[01:18:30] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: You don’t embrace it. You don’t bank it. Like you said that you need a bank, those feelings. Because yeah. Feelings came up right. There was

[01:18:41] Muhammad Kermalli: succinct. I read about the difference between being alone and feeling lonely.

[01:18:45] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:18:47] Muhammad Kermalli: Especially with the way things are today. People feel very alone. Yeah. But there’s a difference between being, feeling alone and feeling lonely and what people feel is loneliness.

[01:18:57] Muhammad Kermalli: And to your point, there’s a saying out there that if you like who you are, you may be alone, but you won’t be lonely. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And to get people to understand that no matter what their story is, that there’s a beautiful person there. You got to start loving that person and you’ll never be lonely again.

[01:19:19] Muhammad Kermalli: And alone is not a bad thing. In fact, there are people who seek to be alone a lot. So. You know, I’ve worked

[01:19:27] Triena McGuirk: on a lot to gather your thoughts,

[01:19:32] Muhammad Kermalli: uh, but it is beautiful story. And thank you so much for sharing it with us and not only sharing it with us, but you’re your reason for even coming here together with us and seeing us for what we have been aspiring to be and, um, and helping us to be more of that today.

[01:19:51] Muhammad Kermalli: Amazing story.

[01:19:52] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Thank you. Yeah. You know what? I think everyone needs to know the more of us out there and they’re there more of us. We only hear the success stories, but we don’t hear of the stories that brought them to success, which is usually their failures a hundred percent. Yeah. You know, what did somebody say?

[01:20:11] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: A failing is a

[01:20:13] Triena McGuirk: feelings just learning or I don’t know, something

[01:20:14] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: like that. First attempt in learning for the first

[01:20:22] Triena McGuirk: acronym.

[01:20:22] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: Yeah. Yeah. First, thank you. I had such fun.

[01:20:27] Muhammad Kermalli: Um, we’re going to do this again. Definitely do it again. If that’s okay with you. I don’t know. On another good day

[01:20:35] Nicolle Kopping-Pavars: you schedule it in my calendar. Good day. I have it labeled