Skip links

Calculated Risk - Confronting The Worst Case Scenario

with Marco Mo

In this episode of Breaking, we sit down with Marco Mo, Co-Founder of Archerfish Insights to talk about:

• His childhood transformation from being an easy target to becoming the oppressor.

• Becoming a parent and opening up the dialogue with his son by showing vulnerability.

• Learning of his adoption in adult life and re-experiencing the feeling of gratitude for his parents.

• Why it’s okay to change course even if you’re heavily invested.

• How to enjoy the effort you put into things whether you gain or lose.

• Processing emotions and not internalizing situations out of your control.

• And much more.

Archerfish Insights is a sales company that was built to remove sales activity inconsistency by coordinating multiple business disciplines into efficient business development production lines. They develop processes that consistently generate demand, develop opportunities and win business. They build your sales process so you can spend your time doing what you do best – delivering a fantastic customer experience.


Find Marco Mo at



Visit for all episodes of the show.


Muhammad Kermalli –

Triena McGuirk –

Min Woo Park & Diana Hong @ 6 Story –

Episode Transcript

*This transcription was made for your convenience. Please excuse any mistakes the automated service made.

[00:00:00] Triena McGuirk: So today we’re sitting with Markel Mo. Welcome Marco. Thank you for being with us today. Um, I just briefly had a chance to meet Marco before coming in here, and I’m super excited to learn more about you and your perspectives of how you, you know, have navigated risk and how you’ve overcome challenges in your life.

[00:00:19] Triena McGuirk: And look at things from a perspective of neutrality and really moving through life without a lot of attachment to outcome, whether it be positive or negative and how that served you in being able to not only be successful in your life, but also move forward, but things in your life and create an invite and new opportunities.

[00:00:36] Triena McGuirk: So welcome. And I really look forward to hearing.

[00:00:39] Muhammad Kermalli: You notice that no matter what we’ll be talking about, Marco, we’ll get to this. Maybe I remember the last time we even met, we were, we had a scheduled meeting to talk about something work-related we never got to the work.

[00:00:52] Muhammad Kermalli: No,

[00:00:53] Marco Mo: no. It was like,

[00:00:54] Muhammad Kermalli: Hey, where are you at? Dah, dah. Oh, this okay. Depen DEMEC. Oh, The bring this business was out the door, like out the window. Like we didn’t even get to that. And as he’s leaving that day, I go, oh my God, I needed to talk to you about something. We’ll do it later, later. So really that’s what I found that that happens constantly with us because he’ll go and he’ll say something and I’ll be like, what do you mean?

[00:01:21] Marco Mo: Oh, you know, it is, I don’t get a chance to you. Can’t put on a show for other people. You would know, even closer. I think it’s sort of, there’s that just right. Amount of distance, you know, I’ve met you and, you know, sort of feeling shut out. But my friends about, I talked to them the way I talk to you to look wrong, this guy.

[00:01:37] Marco Mo: Yeah. There’s a different, you know, everybody’s got different levels of comfort. They know me as I was in high school and you know, they still probably see me as that person in high school. So I’ve met you as somebody who’s gone through hell. And so you see a different person, right? And so you just presented and face.

[00:01:56] Marco Mo: Yeah. So who is it that you were in high school?

[00:01:59] Muhammad Kermalli: This is where we’ll start.

[00:02:01] Marco Mo: Tell me Marco in high

[00:02:02] Muhammad Kermalli: school or was, should we go before high school?

[00:02:06] Marco Mo: No, no, I don’t want to talk about no, no, I, I was, um, uh, like I say, I, uh, I was the only Asian kid in east York, so, you know, small guy, small man syndrome. So I was actually quoted out there, like I was, I was never, uh, I was never quiet or shy and so I was very, very good at getting my way type of way.

[00:02:27] Marco Mo: So I actually had a pretty good, good time growing up, um, and allowed me to, uh, Uh, I realized that you have to make your own space at a very young age. You have to, you grew up in this area or no, I was actually in east York. So, uh, Victoria Park in St. Claire is where it was called op. Right. Is that what is what

[00:02:48] Triena McGuirk: St.

[00:02:48] Triena McGuirk: Claire?

[00:02:54] Marco Mo: Claire alumni. Yeah, man. I, I, yeah. That’s

[00:02:59] Muhammad Kermalli: what happened today. Young in St. Claire. I don’t really have something St.

[00:03:03] Marco Mo: Claire. Yeah, no, I was in the poorer parts of St. Claire. No, it’s true. Yeah, no, it’s definitely true. And, um, and so, you know, I would think the first act of rebellion was, you know, when I finished grade eight, uh, my parents didn’t know I changed schools.

[00:03:16] Marco Mo: I found an address somewhere downtown, um, and it just used that person’s address and just change schools, right. District went down to Jarvis collegiate and you just decided

[00:03:25] Muhammad Kermalli: I need to change. Because that wouldn’t have

[00:03:27] Triena McGuirk: been your, your school you’re in,

[00:03:28] Marco Mo: would’ve been, I would’ve gone to Israel collegiate. I didn’t work out.

[00:03:32] Marco Mo: I didn’t want to go there. I just didn’t want to go. What do you mean you didn’t want to go? I just wanna try something new. I just wanted to try it. And then I went down to, on a chain. I found an address. I bought someone’s address and I changed schools and it wasn’t a while into it that my parents were.

[00:03:45] Marco Mo: Where are you from? Grade nine. Yeah. Where are you?

[00:03:48] Muhammad Kermalli: What are you going to just say to your parents? I don’t want to go to this school. You didn’t even bother

[00:03:52] Marco Mo: going through that whole. No, it’s all, it’s easier to ask for forgiveness and to ask for permission. Right? And so it was way into it. It was worth going every morning and going to Jarvis, why Jarvis?

[00:04:05] Marco Mo: They had no idea. So that’s what happened. So why Jarvis? Well, the ostensibly the Zuora grows there. Okay. No, but you know, like Asian kids, Asian girls, and then you had the Jarvis harbored and Riverdale. Community. That’s the word. Yeah. And that’s it. That was the impetus. Okay. Yeah. Work out. That’s a good

[00:04:28] Triena McGuirk: motivator.

[00:04:29] Triena McGuirk: Yep.

[00:04:31] Muhammad Kermalli: And, okay, so I see a reasoning. I see your logic and that’s all I had and it was, it doesn’t have to be complicated. Right?

[00:04:39] Marco Mo: It’s not pretty academics.

[00:04:44] Marco Mo: No, no, no. But it’s funny how we see this, that we’re so protective of our kids now that we don’t my gosh. And the God forbid. Right. But if your kid did that to be mortified, right? Yeah. No, it doesn’t happen nowadays.

[00:04:58] Muhammad Kermalli: So you see your parents don’t know you’re going through, this is this sort of school until one

[00:05:01] Marco Mo: day.

[00:05:02] Marco Mo: Yeah. Until one day, you know what, he leaves early to go to school. That’s close. I’m like, dude, that’s an hour away, man. Oh really? And then that’s all it comes out and then it’s, and then found out. Yeah, it was too late. Now it’s already two months into it. Right. So they don’t care two months into it before he found out that I changed schools.

[00:05:15] Marco Mo: Okay. It is what it is. Right. But, um, but I’ve always been that way. Right. So I think I’m seeing a new set of friends there then, and these are the same friends I still have now, 30 years later. Right. So it worked out. Yeah.

[00:05:29] Muhammad Kermalli: So you said you have to, you learn at an early age that you have to make a space for yourself.

[00:05:34] Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah. Where did you learn

[00:05:36] Marco Mo: this? I don’t know. Just decided I had to, um, growing up, I was very shy, uh, as you know, again, you know, you’re the only Asian kid in, in, in, in a community and, you know, you hear words and then you feel bad about words and then you realize, um, you know, if you felt bad. Yeah, for sure.

[00:05:53] Marco Mo: But if you realize that, if, um, if, if you take away the, the, the weight of the words, um, you don’t hurt so much. And then, but you realize you also need allies, right? You just learn to leverage, uh, others who may feel the same.

[00:06:11] Marco Mo: what is that saying? You know, give me a lever long enough. I can move the earth. Yes. Whatever, whoever said that. Yes. Something when that guy

[00:06:23] Marco Mo: but it’s true though. Right? Like I think, I think the biggest problem is that if you try to muscle through yourself, you just won’t work. Right.

[00:06:30] Triena McGuirk: So you do that to, up to a point, you got to hold someone’s hand or

[00:06:34] Muhammad Kermalli: Google said that. Yeah. We’ll get to that later. Yeah. So, um, so carry on. You were

[00:06:40] Marco Mo: saying, yeah. So I think that there there’s, a lot of it had to do with.

[00:06:44] Marco Mo: Uh, folks tend to pick on the quiet in the meek, so you can see that she can recognize that. And that probably shouldn’t be quite at MC and really that’s all it is. Right. And, you know, you remember thinking, oh yeah, for sure.

[00:06:57] Triena McGuirk: For sure.

[00:06:59] Marco Mo: I would say probably by the time I was, you know, nine, or you can see it though, you can observe it, you can observe it.

[00:07:07] Marco Mo: It’s, you know, it’s the idea that, um, uh, people go after easy targets, so don’t be an easy target, you know, you know, whatever, uh, the, the, the perceived shortcomings are the other kids who see, they’ll find a way. Yeah. Right. And so, you know, then you start not letting that bother you. And then you also start surrounding yourself with numbers.

[00:07:29] Marco Mo: And I became quite good at rallying folks who otherwise would have felt left out too. Now, all of a sudden you have numbers, you have a commonality. Yeah. Right. And again, you, you swear to make sure that, uh, the, at a very young age, I realize what’s within your control. What’s not in your control. That’s honestly the biggest differentiator, my trial life w you

[00:07:55] Muhammad Kermalli: know, what you started doing from even that point.

[00:07:57] Muhammad Kermalli: Um, cause I’m thinking if I had the same feeling and yet it hurt in the, I didn’t like it, but I didn’t know what to do about it. I didn’t get to the point of calculating going. I have to create space. I have to create my space and I have to rally people. And that requires me to be this persona. You put

[00:08:18] Marco Mo: on a show, well, that’s

[00:08:20] Muhammad Kermalli: right.

[00:08:21] Muhammad Kermalli: I didn’t know to put all this together. So to figure all this out, you have to sit there and conceive a plan and then go and execute it. And you had to look at, you didn’t even necessarily even have the skills to do it. No.

[00:08:34] Marco Mo: So there’s a dark side of that story is. A young age and it’s sounds stupid. I bring it up and I’m hurt.

[00:08:41] Marco Mo: And I am, I feel mortified. I think about it is that you, then you get to the point where it flips the other way. What do you mean? The, the oppressed becomes the oppressor. You know, all of a sudden you realize you can generate the space, you can generate this following. You suddenly become the mean one. Did you feel like that’s what I did that and I was terrible and I felt I, and I were doing it though.

[00:09:03] Marco Mo: Yeah. So, you know, you, you sort of start off as I’m going to do this for a self defensive mechanisms, but then you realize at a very young age that hang on a second, you know, now I can just turn it back to. And it wasn’t good. I was terrible. Um, what do you mean? Uh, I’m not gonna go there, but, uh, it was terrible enough.

[00:09:25] Marco Mo: It was terrible enough that people reached out to me on Facebook and whatnot eat 30 years later to remind me how much I’ve heard them. And, um, so I’ve been through that. And so I, I openly admit that to my son. I said, don’t, don’t be that guy. Um, and, and you, and you don’t realize how much you hurt folks in the moment.

[00:09:44] Marco Mo: Right. Uh, and then here’s the thing. And then you see your son, my own son getting hurt. The holy smokes that’s

[00:09:51] Triena McGuirk: oh yeah. Perspectives of

[00:09:52] Marco Mo: that. It shouldn’t have taken me this long. And certainly by the time I would say, I didn’t grow up until he was born. He was 30. Right. You still kid up to that and you can do what you want to say and push your way through.

[00:10:04] Marco Mo: But yeah, so it does, it’s, it’s a weird thing. And it’s one of those truisms where, um, you can’t give somebody a little bit of taste of power. They just keep on running with it. And, and so you that’s that happened, you know, at a young age. Um, and I was mean, and I wasn’t nice. Um, and that also gave you space, right.

[00:10:27] Marco Mo: Then people would decide that, yeah, I’d rather be on his good side and his bad side. Um, and you realize that holy smokes, there’s an enormous amount of. There’s pain under all of that. Right. It’s all defense mechanism. Right? Right. A hundred percent that you’re so worried about getting beat up again, or you’re so worried about getting no things thrown in your face that you then create it’s, you know, you got the whole Joe Pesci thing going.

[00:10:53] Triena McGuirk: It’s true, but it’s true. Visualization.

[00:10:57] Marco Mo: It’s true. Good fellows. All of them. It’s a senior guy, man. It’s like Steven Seagal is the same character every time.

[00:11:06] Muhammad Kermalli: That’s crazy, man.

[00:11:07] Marco Mo: It’s true. It is. And so it’s, it’s a neat thing to have seen and then look back and reflect on holy smokes. I actually did that.

[00:11:15] Triena McGuirk: We’re going to have that conversation with your son to, in such a moment that just brings a different layer to it.

[00:11:20] Triena McGuirk: When you see your son going through this. Right. And

[00:11:23] Marco Mo: even before though, you know, I said, you know, one of the things I learned, but not being very nice is that, um, you, you don’t, you only going to see the pain of it until it’s on your kid and the holy smokes that’s what’s happening. And then, then you tell them, and then you, obviously you come clean and you tell them, you know, you weren’t great.

[00:11:40] Marco Mo: But, um, again, remind yourself that remind him that don’t ever make anybody else feel.

[00:11:46] Triena McGuirk: Yeah. And I was just speaking with some people about that, that issue recently, and we were talking about connection and families, and I think what you’re doing there is really, really powerful for your son on so many levels, because one of the things I find, um, I know for myself as a parent and then other parents, I speak.

[00:12:06] Triena McGuirk: As we tend to put up this picture of that we have all the answers are things okay. And everything’s perfect, but, or we hide certain things from them about ourselves are true. But when I think there’s so much, um, there’s so much wealth and knowledge there for your son, because with that humility that you brought to that he’s now seeing, okay, like you’re not one dimensional.

[00:12:28] Triena McGuirk: You’re not just dad. You’d be like, oh, he’s had experiences. He’s had things. And so when kids hear these things, um, it’s so important because it gets to see the humanity in all of our experiences. So then it opens up that dialogue a lot more. So by you being that vulnerable with your son, you just really open.

[00:12:47] Triena McGuirk: So much more for him to come to you as well, without necessarily. And being aware of that,

[00:12:51] Marco Mo: you know, one of the things I will say to him, this I’m just making shit up. As I go along, I openly say, I’m making this up. As I said,


[00:12:56] Triena McGuirk: don’t come with a manual

[00:12:58] Marco Mo: and tell him, look, this is the first time I’ve been to that.

[00:13:02] Marco Mo: So I probably messed up a whole bunch of ways. I didn’t even know yet. And you’ll tell me at some point, but, but I tell them that because it’s actually true, you know, you, you do your best, you think you’re doing the right thing, but it’s sometimes not the right thing. And, you know, working through it

[00:13:19] Triena McGuirk: and happened, like you said, your son’s 15.

[00:13:21] Triena McGuirk: Right. I sent him at my son’s 19. I’m like, I made so many mistakes if I do now and be totally different. And that’s the thing. Yeah.

[00:13:29] Marco Mo: But it’s

[00:13:29] Muhammad Kermalli: also, it’s also all of that. Like our parents went through the same thing as well. Yeah. Yeah. They were parents for the first time at some point. Yeah. And, uh, their did their best and you, you know, you did, as you thought you were doing your best as well.

[00:13:44] Muhammad Kermalli: And that’s what counts, um,

[00:13:45] Marco Mo: you know, for, you know, like I said, you know, I think we might’ve seen backstory immigrant parents in the new country. So half of it you’re first generation Canadian. I am first generation. I was born in Hong Kong, but I can’t find your son is first generation first generation.

[00:13:59] Marco Mo: Yeah. I was born in 75, came in 76. So I was about six months old. Yeah. Pretty much. Right. And I only see this as home, so, you know, it, you know, they were younger than me certainly. Now when, when, and you know, I can’t imagine the struggles, I just can’t even imagine the struggles. Right. You know, my mom was doing two bucks an hour as a waitress, you know, back then.

[00:14:21] Marco Mo: And, um, you know, no, actually she was actually quite proficient with English and language and the both were back then, so we were fortunate. Um, but, um, it was so hard, you know, it’s. So

[00:14:33] Triena McGuirk: they were experiencing the same probably oppression that you were facing as a child is.

[00:14:38] Marco Mo: Yeah, I think, I think it, it might’ve been more open and then it gets less and less now than a lot of that, you know, covert now it’s more subtle right now.

[00:14:48] Marco Mo: It’s more subtle, but yeah. But the cool thing about this and I told Mohamad over and I was like, so at the age of 1 46 now, right. So at the age of 45, I found out that I was adopted. So we went through all of this and didn’t have to dig into that. They didn’t, they just, it’s just off you go. But, but, but, but you know what, like I found out like that’s recent, like a year ago, like my mom and the dad who who’ve been divorced for 20 years to show up and they’re like, yeah, why are you together, man?

[00:15:21] Marco Mo: And they showed up and they said, yeah, it was. Here’s the papers I’m like prompted that COVID they, they thought that they’re going to die. They thought that, you know, this might be a good time to tell the guy. Yeah. Because my mom lived to that her whole life. And so she said, I want to make sure he has enough time to, if he wants to find his birth parents.

[00:15:39] Marco Mo: And I said, nah, I’m colorless. You know, don’t have any interest. Right. And so, yeah. So yeah. So for me I felt nothing but gratitude. I was not sad. Oh no. I was just gratitude. Just happy. Yeah. Because there’s still your parents. Well, for sure. Right. And, um, but, but the point was, they’ve been through a hell with me.

[00:15:57] Marco Mo: I was a terrible kid, uh, ran away and all sort of stuff that kids do and they didn’t have to run away

[00:16:06] Muhammad Kermalli: guts to do that also. Right. Like, yeah. Yeah. I, a lot of stuff. Um,

[00:16:15] Muhammad Kermalli: I wanted to at some point, but tell me about a kid didn’t want to, at some point it’s almost like a natural, you want to leave the nest, but it comes out in a way. Right? So,

[00:16:28] Marco Mo: but the good thing that, all of that and then can reflection was like I said, everybody knew you, by the way. I dunno. I forgot a couple of times and everybody, everybody knew, but the thing is, everybody knew that that was adopted and your whole family, everybody knew no one ever breathed a bit of it to me.

[00:16:42] Marco Mo: So that’s awesome. So that’s, that’s great attitude. Um, so I am now 46. I’m thinking holy smokes. So the good thing was I was a jerk, not thinking they were adopted. I was just actually a joke. It was fantastic. It was actually be worse if I knew I was adopted and acted like a jerk, but I was sincerely hydro.

[00:17:00] Marco Mo: It was authentic. It was at least January. At least I was genuine. I thought you were my parents, but, um, but they were, and it was awesome.

[00:17:08] Muhammad Kermalli: I would say like a jerk, you were, you had trained yourself to create the space. So the charts, would you say that you are, is the space it’s like, I interchange those two words are synonymous.

[00:17:21] Muhammad Kermalli: You’re being a jerk. Is your space that you created yourself for yourself to be safe? Yeah. A hundred percent. Imagine how many people must do that. It’s very, it’s a very, it’s very natural actually to do I do it nowadays. Uh, you know, I’m like, I’d rather be seen as this than be seen as, oh, you know, week and then, you know, the whole mistaking kindness for weakness, whatever it’s called.

[00:17:44] Muhammad Kermalli: And then, because when they think you’re weak, then you know, like you got to deal with all this other stuff. So why go through that? Why don’t we just put up the jerk front and, uh,

[00:17:54] Marco Mo: thank you. Yes. I would say now I’m not less like, yeah, I’m not less like that. Now. I just do the like, I am so quick at compartmentalizing and I just put in the box, put the box over there and I’m, and I can.

[00:18:08] Marco Mo: I don’t have to return to it at all. Like, it’s amazing. It’s um, we talked about last time, right? I’m I don’t have what’s called a sunk cost fallacy. I don’t think that, oh, I put all of this into this thing. I got something called cost on cost fallacy. People think, Hey, I’ve put all this time into my career all the time.

[00:18:22] Marco Mo: Just relationship. I got to just see it through now. I’m gone. It’s awesome. No, it isn’t amazing.

[00:18:28] Triena McGuirk: I I’m very much like, yeah, like it’s, it’s, you know, I think once I get to that level, sometimes it takes me longer to get to them. And once I’m there, I’m like,

[00:18:35] Marco Mo: no, I’m like, I’m good. I’m pretty good.

[00:18:40] Triena McGuirk: I’m working on my

[00:18:41] Marco Mo: threshold with, that’s why I want to talk to you about this really?

[00:18:45] Marco Mo: Like it helps with the trading. I see it. I, I supplement my income with, in our business with our trading accounts. Right. So I do a lot of that too in the last couple of 10 years. So yeah, because then you’re not. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s all about multiple streams. So you can’t just put your eggs in one basket, right?

[00:19:01] Marco Mo: And it’s true. So you, you it’s, everything is about risk management, right. You know, so you have your downside and upside risk and what’s your, and I sort of trans translate all of that to just living, you know, what’s your downside with upside and, and it’s not like living like a spreadsheet, but you know, you know, when it’s not working.

[00:19:19] Triena McGuirk: Yeah,

[00:19:20] Muhammad Kermalli: yeah, yeah.

[00:19:21] Marco Mo: So,

[00:19:23] Muhammad Kermalli: I mean, we’re hopping on, on, on different timelines. I want to kind of go back to this space that you said you got to create for yourself, which then you decide is going to be what ultimately turns out to be the oppressor. I think there’s insight there. Um, I think there’s insight for a lot of people to understand that that is one reflex to, you know, survival that a lot of people do.

[00:19:47] Muhammad Kermalli: Um, and when, when they do that. So it’s interesting because I could, I could have run into you actually. I was just in north York on the border of east York and. Let’s try and decide Leacock we side to mark them. And then I was like, so, so we were very close and around the same kind of timeline. Um, but when, when I think about it, if I ran into somebody who I would think there’d be an oppressor, I wouldn’t think that this person or who I would, um, perceive as a, as an oppressor, this person’s just creating this

[00:20:20] Marco Mo: space for themselves to survive.

[00:20:22] Marco Mo: Most bullies are small. They really are inside.

[00:20:26] Muhammad Kermalli: I was like, wow, look at how strong they are. And oh my God, you know, right. Until later, uh, when I discovered who I was and all that. But in that, in that time of being the oppressor, what I wonder then is, um, cause you said, you know, uh, I made mistakes or I did bad things, whatever, but the question is, is that when, when a person’s going through that call of the oppressor, right.

[00:20:48] Muhammad Kermalli: Call it the space that you’re in, what I’m curious to understand is. At some point in time, you say to yourself, right. And Europe, you, like you said, you have a low threshold, so you’re like, no, cut this I’m out. So on being that on, being in that space of who you have that persona, at what point in time did you start saying?

[00:21:10] Muhammad Kermalli: Cause you’re not an oppressor, not how I know you. Um, what point in time did you start saying to yourself, this is not the space for me?

[00:21:18] Marco Mo: Hm. Well, I think you don’t, sometimes you don’t grow up until you’re you have to grow up and then, and then you say to yourself, well, I can’t be this person, um, around my son.

[00:21:31] Marco Mo: I just can’t, I’m not that person. Right. You know, I was relatively effective working. Um, I was very fortunate to, to, you know, to be in management positions very early in my career. Um, for. You know, you know, I was hard to, you know, sometimes be the hatchet man or whatever it is, and I was young. Um, but I had this idea that you, his wallet off and say, Hey, you know what, I was hired to do this job.

[00:21:59] Marco Mo: And you sort of play into that thing. Right. But I think what I do, so, you know, you sort of have a personality and personalities continue because they’re allowed to continue jerks exist because, uh, what you permit, you promote what people around you permit you to do. They’re saying, yeah, I quit. I’m okay with it.

[00:22:17] Marco Mo: And so my lesson to folks who feel like they have horrible people in their lives is sometimes you let go on far too long. That’s why they keep on being burdened. Um, so the cutting off thing is exactly the opposite. What would I do if somebody was like me? Okay. That’s it. And, and, uh, I don’t need a second chance.

[00:22:39] Marco Mo: I don’t need a second time that you hurt. And so that’s what you do, right? So, you know, you

[00:22:44] Triena McGuirk: made a profession that have that skill.

[00:22:46] Marco Mo: I live with that mantra. You, you, you, you promote what you permit. You, you, it, whether, whether it’s kids, whether it’s with coworkers, whether it was friends, if you promote a few permit behaviors, you don’t like you implicitly saying, do it again.

[00:23:02] Muhammad Kermalli: You know, this is, um, uh, you take what you get. So there’s other, there’s another one says, actually, you get, when you take a hundred percent is what your, you go with you. So you take it. You’ll keep on getting it. Yeah. And, um, so as this kind of

[00:23:16] Triena McGuirk: self-responsibility right,

[00:23:19] Marco Mo: well, people take it, I think, because they think that there’s other options.

[00:23:24] Marco Mo: It’s all I got. That’s not true, man. It’s the world of options. And that’s where I learned that there was a horrible, no, those options are be. Huh they generally are. If it’s crap right now. Yeah. Like if it’s, if it’s crop right now. Yeah. Seriously. Like, you know, and, and it’s not the whole idea of this is the crap that I know.

[00:23:46] Marco Mo: And that’s a lot of people, right? Yeah. And I say this to my son all the time. He would just, just because it’s familiar doesn’t mean it’s good. Right. And

[00:23:53] Triena McGuirk: the theme today, we were talking about finding the comfort in things that are familiar, but not good for us

[00:23:58] Marco Mo: a lot of times. Right. And you know, if you didn’t do that,

[00:24:02] Muhammad Kermalli: what do you mean?

[00:24:02] Muhammad Kermalli: Cause you wouldn’t stick around.

[00:24:04] Marco Mo: Yeah. So don’t, I’m good because I, I, if you play on both your approach, if, sort of, if you’ve been one person and you realize that’s not the person you want in your life, then you can spot it them all the way. I don’t want this one up. Not even I can see me the worst parts of me when I was younger in folks.

[00:24:25] Marco Mo: No, no, that’s it. I don’t have to, I don’t have to make a big deal out of it. No, but I am pretty. Giving closure. I’m not one of those guys has disappeared ghost anybody. Here’s the reasons that we’re not talking.

[00:24:37] Triena McGuirk: Do you have any questions?

[00:24:39] Marco Mo: There’s no yelling screen. There’s no need for that. And it’s very, yeah.

[00:24:45] Marco Mo: It’s not gonna work, man. This is the reasons. Yeah. Yeah. Here’s what happens in that email. I bet

[00:24:52] Muhammad Kermalli: you there’s like this, this, this, this persuasion to, to keep you in that role, because for whatever reason that ecosystem thrives, because you play that role. So the ecosystem moves to keep you in that role

[00:25:04] Marco Mo: once you think.

[00:25:05] Marco Mo: I think so. And you can feel it in that in some sense, it’s some weird, it’s hard to manage even threats. Maybe. No, I very rarely threatened anybody, but

[00:25:12] Muhammad Kermalli: I’m talking to the other way. Like if you go there’s a threat to you, right? Yeah.

[00:25:16] Marco Mo: I would say, yeah, but that’s a form of manipulation and you can spot that a mile away, you know?

[00:25:22] Marco Mo: And, and, you know, oftentimes you see people who are very anxious about their, their. Those are the things that would come out, you know, or if you do this, I will do this. Um, and fear, I don’t stay for that, that dude. That’s not going to keep me. Right. Um, so it’s, it’s pretty good. Like it’s

[00:25:42] Triena McGuirk: motivating, right?

[00:25:43] Triena McGuirk: It’s

[00:25:44] Marco Mo: not motivating either. No, but I think the, the biggest power is just able to walk away, just

[00:25:50] Triena McGuirk: recognizing what you can’t change.

[00:25:52] Marco Mo: That’s the 100%. Right? Right.

[00:25:53] Muhammad Kermalli: That’s one of your lines

[00:25:54] Marco Mo: on that on a piece of paper, you can’t change what other people think, but you can change how you respond. Right. And, um, so most cases I’m going to respond.

[00:26:03] Marco Mo: Yeah.

[00:26:04] Triena McGuirk: Well, sometimes when you see that, um, when you see something in someone else responding, sometimes we’ll just escalate it. Cause it’s not always hurt. Well, right. So it’s kind of knowing your audience with that too, where people are at to receive what you have to say.

[00:26:19] Marco Mo: So, no, I’ve always wondered why, you know, looking back, why did they put up with this crap?

[00:26:23] Marco Mo: Like why did they put up with me for so long?


[00:26:25] Muhammad Kermalli: there’s a question. Why did.

[00:26:27] Marco Mo: It’s again, it comes down to, they don’t value themselves enough. They think when

[00:26:33] Triena McGuirk: we say they, we talking about in high school,

[00:26:35] Marco Mo: like the kids. Yeah. We even, you know, folks, if I was, if I wasn’t particularly kind and, uh, or I was, you know, if I took up a lot of, lot of air in the room, um, I was like, why, why did you let me go through all of that?

[00:26:49] Marco Mo: Like, why didn’t you just punch me in the face and tell him to stop? Why didn’t they? I don’t know. I think a lot of that comes with, I think, I think as I seen before, uh, bullying call it whatever they find their mark, you know, it’s a, it’s a relationship that people allow themselves to remain in. Um, and it’s not physical.

[00:27:09] Marco Mo: It’s, you know, it’s a, it’s a lot of.

[00:27:12] Triena McGuirk: Well, sometimes connection, even if it’s psychological.

[00:27:15] Marco Mo: Yeah. You just pick up room in your head, right. And then you use literally free room and board. Oh, that’s what it is. Right. So it’s a weird thing that we’re talking about, but yeah, it is what it is, but

[00:27:26] Triena McGuirk: we’ll go through it though.

[00:27:26] Triena McGuirk: That’s the thing, are we seeing it from one perspective

[00:27:30] Marco Mo: or another? So I would say, you know, the only advice I would give to anybody, kids, if I was talking to my kid is recognized behaviors. And, um, you know, if people show you who they are and that’s who they are, believe who they are and what they’re going through, that could be Ben.

[00:27:44] Marco Mo: Then, then come back when you’re a better, like, seriously, you don’t need to take the abuse, man. Like, you know, it’s one thing to say. Hurting. I’m going to go embrace him and fix, help and be there. Right. But if you’re taking a abuse while he’s going through stuff, come on, man. No, one’s

[00:28:00] Triena McGuirk: perfect. Yeah. And that kind of comes to the, you know, we always have the capacity to really see the good in people.

[00:28:06] Triena McGuirk: Right. So even when they’re treating us badly, we can still see the good in them. And so, and when you’re not being treated well and whatever, dynamic of a relationship, it’s, you, you hold on to that. Goodness. You see hoping the badness will stop and they’ll change. But sometimes that might never change for a person because they can only do that.

[00:28:26] Marco Mo: You can’t do that. Sometimes you make up, you

[00:28:29] Triena McGuirk: make yeah. To soothe yourself or they may never reach their potential. Yeah. Right. They might have all that goodness all the time and that potential, but to actually actualize

[00:28:38] Marco Mo: it. But that’s the, the idea of the sunk cost. I’ve put so much into this. I can fix this.

[00:28:43] Marco Mo: I can, I can. No, you have to

[00:28:45] Triena McGuirk: accept it. Yeah. Whereas

[00:28:47] Muhammad Kermalli: I tell you, I don’t understand. And, uh, and I look at, while you’re saying this, I’m thinking about how many people didn’t give up on me when they could have given up on me. And according to this idea of

[00:29:03] Marco Mo: given up on me, know if you were, he was sieve, that’s one thing.

[00:29:07] Marco Mo: I mean, if you’re needing your help

[00:29:08] Muhammad Kermalli: sunk cost, the sunk cost into me.

[00:29:13] Marco Mo: I see what you’re saying. So parents and family. Yep. Absolutely.

[00:29:17] Muhammad Kermalli: For starters, for starters, for starters, uh, yeah, they sink a lot of cost into us and according to this idea, they should walk away. But

[00:29:27] Marco Mo: no, they should that I haven’t applied that to my own family at all.

[00:29:29] Marco Mo: Exactly. However, they apply it to you. Correct. Right. And

[00:29:33] Muhammad Kermalli: I mean, the family that took you and you shouldn’t, that’s what I’m talking about. Yeah. He never did it. And you said it yourself, you, you, according to you, you’re not a good, a good kid to them, whatever, whatever, like you were, I was probably worse, but the point is is that they stuck with you.

[00:29:49] Muhammad Kermalli: Yes. And, um, anyway, so that’s for them, but I’m thinking for me too, uh, yeah, I’m glad somebody’s stuck around. Um, my wife for starters, I always say she must be like borderline insane because she stuck around this long and she has. The most impactful person on who I am. Um, and it’s because of her patience with me and I’m not talking a day or I’m talking decades, a lifetime commitment to me that she could have bailed.

[00:30:22] Muhammad Kermalli: Like so many people have bailed on me, but she S she stuck with me bail and

[00:30:28] Marco Mo: a huge difference, I think, baling versus not even worth it. I know, but I’m talking about if you’re talking about baling versus taking, uh, abuse or being in a situation where now, if you’re, if you were abusive for instance, right.

[00:30:44] Marco Mo: I don’t know. And I don’t know why it was my would stick around. I mean, I, you know, if I’ve ever abusive to my wife, uh, she should not stick around. Right, right. Um, but I would say that there’s, there’s one, you know, when I’m talking about sunk cost, I’m talking about, am I putting into, you know, an op you know, relationship, opportunity, uh, investment or whatever it is.

[00:31:05] Marco Mo: Um, there has to be some sort of downside, man, There has to be you, you don’t just like frozen. Yeah, I agree. And you know, like the, the idea is, uh, you have to accept that there are options. I think if you live, I think folks who hang on for dear life for whatever that reason is, don’t see options. And they don’t live in abundance in some sense.

[00:31:30] Marco Mo: Cause I know that, uh, at this moment, if things didn’t go well, whether it’s investment or whatever, I feel there are others. I really do feel that like, you know, I’ve lost this bit of business. I will find it there. I made a battery. Yeah. I made a bad trade here. I will do a little trader. So I always feel that there’s an abundance, uh, in, in that mindset.

[00:31:52] Marco Mo: And I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it that, you know, it’s like the Tetris effect, right? If. See obstacles. If you expect obstacles, you only see obstacles. If you expect the next thing around the corner, you will see the next thing around the corner. It will show up. Yeah. And so when I say in, in terms of, you know, sunk cost fallacy, I do sincerely mean that we often throw a lot of times in our careers or business, um, you know, friendships that may or may not be reciprocal or even, even family relationships that aren’t, that aren’t positive.

[00:32:23] Marco Mo: Both ways you gotta cut. Um, you know, and not yet

[00:32:27] Muhammad Kermalli: abusive. Huh? They’re not abusive.

[00:32:29] Marco Mo: They’re not positive either. There’s there’s got it. I mean, not saying that everybody’s, everything’s in a spreadsheet, right? Come on at the end of the day there’s there’s, but if you’re at least do no harm

[00:32:38] Triena McGuirk: taking more. Yeah.

[00:32:40] Triena McGuirk: I think giving back to you or depleting, nurturing, or giving back to you, then.

[00:32:45] Marco Mo: That’s where you get to and not everybody’s my son, let’s be honest. Like, I mean, that’s, you know, you know, as we all know, as parents, when it comes to your kids, you live a different person. You’re a different person. You’re your, your, your Papa bear.

[00:32:56] Marco Mo: You go right in there and you fix, or you try to fix things up, making things worse.

[00:33:00] Muhammad Kermalli: Right. There’s a lot of love. There. There’s a lot of investments

[00:33:03] Marco Mo: I told you. I tell you. Okay. I


[00:33:06] Muhammad Kermalli: told you, do we still want to record this part

[00:33:09] Marco Mo: is one of our stories, so, okay. So this, but I didn’t know. So what happened was bottom line is, you know, without going to his wife was putting that into the yeah.

[00:33:23] Marco Mo: Without going into too much detail. Cause, cause you know, um, cause we know. Yeah, because, um, so bottom line is, it was, it wasn’t a good situation home for her. And um, and so I said that’s a little bit different. Yeah. It wasn’t a good situation

[00:33:44] Marco Mo: without going into detail. It wasn’t a good situation. And we had met in university, um, and at some point, you know, it got to a head and I said, look, I didn’t even give her the choice in some sense. This is my favorite. I borrowed my friend’s. And she’s living at home with living at home for parents. Yeah.

[00:34:02] Marco Mo: All that like everything. So it was a weekend. Her, her parents went down to Detroit for Thanksgiving or whatever it is. Um, I drove up in RQ van Dyke borrowed with a whole bunch of plastic bags and, and black paper bags or black paper, uh, garbage bags, garbage bags. I said, look, you have 30 seconds. You make a choice.

[00:34:20] Marco Mo: And she made the choice literally, okay.

[00:34:24] Muhammad Kermalli: Choice between where

[00:34:25] Marco Mo: don’t go stay home or come with me. Um, you know, I was already working, I had my own place. Yeah. It was like 23. I was fixing dinner and I said, look, you’re going to have to choose, like, this is terrible. Um, you know, uh, you know, she’s in med school at that time and, and stuff was killing her, all the stuff is going on.

[00:34:42] Marco Mo: And I said, look, I can save you from. Or you can choose to stay. So we, uh, just, yeah. Okay.

[00:34:48] Muhammad Kermalli: Okay. So the choice, as in like you get with me, come with me now, or I leave you here.

[00:34:52] Marco Mo: No, that is never a choice. That, that, that would be the point I just wanted to listen to, to understand, correct? No, no, no. Yes. That wasn’t a threat.

[00:35:01] Marco Mo: That that would be horrible, but it was because there was nothing for all of us. It’s just our situation. Yes. And it sucked and it sucked right to the end. Um, and bottom line is she grabbed her stuff, packed into the thing and we drove off and that was it. And that was 27 years ago. Wow. Like, well, no, 27 years, maybe at 24 years ago.

[00:35:24] Marco Mo: Yeah. You know, like everything’s good. And I had this responsibility. It’s not really in her life now. Holy crap. Now, now just is you think about that part? Yeah, no, I got scared. Yeah, exactly. She is. She she’s in med school. So now I have to make sure that. Th things won’t screw up. Right. And she’s got all that stuff to happen.

[00:35:46] Marco Mo: And, um, yeah. So surgeon today. Yeah. So I work, I worked out, I was a trader back then and I worked in, we just worked, you know, just worked and made sure we paid, paid the bills. And, you know, as, as physicians, they don’t start building until a decade later. And so, so that was a part of it. So we, we, uh, you know, as a trader and I lost a lot of money at the time, cause I was young and stupid, um, so much so that we couldn’t get married, we couldn’t afford to get married.

[00:36:11] Marco Mo: So we eloped. So we went to Italy, uh, her and I went to Florence and we got married. Did you get the money and go to Florida? No, it was, we didn’t have the money. So it was two credit cards. So we have to get one of those. Like MBNA here to take this car type of thing. Uh, and then, so we, we just Florence. So it was me, myself, me and her and her brother.

[00:36:32] Marco Mo: And I’m my best friend. And it was, it was terrifying because it was just the beginning days of the internet. So we found a wedding planner on the internet and she was like, all right, give me 10 grand. That’s pretty much all we have. Okay. Let’s try it turned out to be great. The guy’s name is Ben Singleton.

[00:36:47] Marco Mo: Awesome. Florence. The mayor of Florence married us. Wow. It was cool. It was just cool. It’s the six of us. We couldn’t afford a wedding dinner. So we had a wedding lunch. Yeah. So 27 years later. Well, not quite 20, we’ve been married 19 years. 20, 23 would be our 20th anniversary. Yeah. So it all worked out. But I think that has to do with that moment back to that, right?

[00:37:10] Marco Mo: Yeah. You know, it had to do with, um, you’re taking all this abuse at home. You got a choice. You don’t have to take this abuse, but she felt

[00:37:18] Triena McGuirk: her options. You got to show her her option. Yeah.

[00:37:22] Marco Mo: Because that’s exactly it. Right. So you say, look, why don’t you. Your

[00:37:27] Muhammad Kermalli: downside management plan.

[00:37:30] Marco Mo: There wasn’t any bucket where you just said could be a downside, but that’s H that’s H that’s

[00:37:36] Muhammad Kermalli: perspective.

[00:37:37] Muhammad Kermalli: The wise guy. Yeah. I want to know about that guy there, who didn’t have a downside management cause that’s a lot of people. That’s what I’m.

[00:37:47] Marco Mo: So back then, the only downside, the only downside management at the time was I better not lose my job, you know, I better not. So you

[00:37:55] Muhammad Kermalli: could have a pretty crappy situation at work, but you stick, you suppose you have a greater purpose.

[00:38:02] Marco Mo: Okay. And that was really the biggest reason I stayed in that job for a period of time. Right before I left. Um, but yeah, you couldn’t screw up now because now you have this person who who’s in med school. Last thing I want to do is screw that up so that she ruined her life. Right. So you just sort of do it, hate the job.

[00:38:19] Marco Mo: You still do it type of thing.

[00:38:21] Muhammad Kermalli: And sometimes that’s your motivator to actually thrive in that same situation, because you know, you don’t want to miss, you need downside management there too. Right. So you just get by yeah. You have to do what we got motivated to crush it over

[00:38:33] Marco Mo: the correct. I, I was pretty, I did well.

[00:38:36] Marco Mo: Right. And then, uh, well enough, uh, so, so that’s it, you know, and so a lot of that is it’s just managing and figuring things out. I call it, I look back and see that’s what I was doing. But back then, no, it was still seat of your pants type of thing. There wasn’t a lot for there. Wasn’t a foresight and forethought.

[00:38:50] Marco Mo: Yeah.

[00:38:51] Muhammad Kermalli: So a lot of people sometimes where I find they’re in that situation, when they hear it and you’re proof of it actually, that’s again, why I’d love to hear your story is because a lot of them feel like I don’t have a plan. I need a plan. I got to see all the steps between now to that light, to the end point where I’m thriving.

[00:39:11] Muhammad Kermalli: And if they don’t see all of this, stuff’s laid out for them, they don’t even take the first step. You just said, you’re flying off the seat of your pants. Right? Like I would say the exact. I’ve done that so many times to like up to last week,

[00:39:23] Marco Mo: I will kill you. Well, this is it.

[00:39:26] Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah. So a lot of people get stuck at that point.

[00:39:28] Muhammad Kermalli: And what I love about hallmark who deals with it is exactly it. You don’t even let the thought creep into your mind about looking that far. What do you call it? It’s um, ever wonder about that. Like

[00:39:39] Marco Mo: we’re a better, a good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow. Um, and okay. I like that. It’s true though.

[00:39:46] Marco Mo: You know, like how many times, if we, yeah, because the thing is, once you’ve done the thing, it’s a whole new set of variables. Now, now your risk management changes before it was like, oh, what if, what if the, you know, her dad hates me? Oh, that’s out the window cares now. Now, now, now that’s completely not a thing right now.

[00:40:05] Marco Mo: That’s that thing that you’re worried about. It doesn’t exist anymore. All right. Hates me. Okay, now we’ll move on. Now you have a whole new set of variables to work with, and that’s really all it is. We’re just managing those variables. It’s true. But you weren’t doing that then there’s no point, but it worked out well.

[00:40:19] Marco Mo: So I started off, you know, I was lucky enough to be, um, okay. I, I did, I did a degree in zoology. Okay. Oh, wow. I really useless. Um, I love animals. That’s that’s about all I got out of it. Right. And I’m waiting for that one time. I’m in jeopardy. And I answered that one question, but yeah, that’s what’s happened.

[00:40:36] Marco Mo: So I, I, I, I got them. I, so I got my first job, like every science grad, I was a waiter. Right. So I became a no, it’s true. So I went out and I became a waiter and I remember getting my first paycheck for like 50 bucks, whatever it was. And I walked into Royal bank on Dundas and Spadina, and I had a check 200 bucks or whatever it really on St.

[00:40:56] Marco Mo: Claire. No. And I walked in and as I was waiting in line, I picked up a brochure, but RSPs and whatnot. And then I don’t know what happened. I just left the line. I walked into the general, the manager’s office. RSPs and stuff. The guy was like, okay, what do you want? I go, I’d like to work here. And then, so he, he, his name was Norman song.

[00:41:15] Marco Mo: So I was sitting there because these are real things happen. So Norman said, okay, well give me a resume. So my resume had like, you know, diversity, Toronto, and then Buffalo jeans, 22, just coming at it. Yeah. So it was like, it was, there’s nothing there of value except, you know, like Buffalo jeans, auto shoes and some, what are some food court thing.

[00:41:35] Marco Mo: Yeah. And then, and then, so he took it and he goes, you have nothing on here. And I go, don’t worry, it’ll be good. And so he sent that up to a lady named Erica chow at Royal bank and she goes, and I heard anything from them for weeks and suddenly her. Yeah. You know, we could use people come on and have an interview.

[00:41:51] Marco Mo: And she goes, you have no finance degree, you have nothing. And I said, I can learn this. Yeah. I can learn this stuff. And so she gave me a chance and she said, okay, you work night shift. And so I’d work from three to 11. And then go home and I’d do all my exams, looking at my trading stuff, my options, my derivatives, my, whatever the heck.

[00:42:10] Marco Mo: Right. And I plowed through all that. And I think six months, and I was licensed and off you go, and that really started my career, but it started off by just following your gut. Well, cause the only thing I could do is just say words, right? So I walked into the dude’s office and he was completely stunned.

[00:42:25] Marco Mo: He was like, why, why are you here? Well, what’s the downside. Yeah.

[00:42:30] Triena McGuirk: They

[00:42:31] Marco Mo: don’t hire you. Yeah. Then I go back to the tiger lilies, which the restaurant I worked at and it was awesome because it was right beside city TV. And then, so what happens to all the CTV people would come in and they’re like really, you know, attractive and whatever.

[00:42:44] Marco Mo: Wow. And they did some of them, it was, some of them are terrible. Uh, but, but I was right there. No names, no names. But Cynthia Mulligan tipped. Well, I’m just saying that. Sorry. She tipped, well, it was a positive thing and yeah. And, and, and so I talked with Lily’s, I’m not sure if it’s still there anymore at restaurant, so yeah.

[00:43:05] Marco Mo: That’s so I walked, it was on queen street and you walked over to the a Royal bank. Yeah. That’s how it all started the weirdest thing, but just doing stuff. And again, there was no downside to not doing it. There was no downside to not doing that income come right. There was no downside to doing it. Like there was none, there was no downside.

[00:43:23] Marco Mo: Like the worst thing that could happen is exactly the same spot. It’s true. It’s awesome. I can see names. It’s awesome. I can actually say normal sometimes that you tried

[00:43:34] Muhammad Kermalli: something and then it didn’t work.

[00:43:36] Marco Mo: I would say eight times out of 10. Okay.

[00:43:38] Muhammad Kermalli: Well you just, you never said that before, because you made it sound like, oh, it just worked out.

[00:43:42] Muhammad Kermalli: It

[00:43:42] Marco Mo: just worked out plenty of things.

[00:43:45] Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah. 80% of the times it doesn’t work. Most things

[00:43:48] Marco Mo: don’t work out. You keep doing it. Yes. I don’t know. That that’s probably wiring, honestly, that might be inspiring. That might be some, some self-teaching, but a lot of it is just what’s the worst that could

[00:44:02] Muhammad Kermalli: happen of the times working out is great.

[00:44:05] Marco Mo: If you can return 20% in investment every single time you’re, you’re doing well. Right. And that’s how I see it. Right. And so I think the idea is, um, there’s almost, there’s almost no downside to trying things at all. I walked into your super place here and Hey, no talking. I could have, you could have said, Hey, it’s no event.

[00:44:28] Marco Mo: All right, man. Take it easy. Right, right. Yeah. Hung around. We talked, right. There’s almost no doubt. And sometimes you don’t know

[00:44:36] Triena McGuirk: what these little conversations or little like movements will do. You don’t know what comes of certain things. Right. It’s really interesting.

[00:44:44] Marco Mo: It’s neat. It’s just, that’s the whole risk management side.

[00:44:47] Marco Mo: Right? So if you, a lot of people I see right now and I say this everyone’s so scared to do any well, I say this to my son and it’s exactly the same thing. You said. They, the statistics show us that over 60% of high schoolers and college grads and young adults are, are terribly crushingly lonely, whether they are at school or here or wherever.

[00:45:11] Marco Mo: So I said, that’s good odds that someone’s waiting for you to ask them something. Yeah. It’s good odds that you can walk up to some rando and say, Hey man, what’s going on? How are you? And they would love to hear from you. So I said to my son, so you’re not the only one you’re on that side of the lonely side right now.

[00:45:28] Marco Mo: But you realize that you’re in good company. If statistics. Yeah. And I think it is because I think it’s maybe more than six years. So a lot of people are that they are the ones that report it. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, for, for men in particular dudes, they, they haven’t heard a compliment in years. And I said, you know, why don’t you beat out of what’s going on, but that’s, I agree.

[00:45:50] Marco Mo: Yeah. Right. But they haven’t heard a good thing about demeanors, right? No one said anything about me and along this time, I think you’re awesome. So are you okay? Nice watch. Sorry, I didn’t mean to no, no, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I didn’t mean. Yeah,

[00:46:12] Triena McGuirk: you’re right. You’re right though. Cause I remember, um, just working in high schools, there’s so many kids in need and I try to like get these groups together.

[00:46:23] Triena McGuirk: So at least, you know, I can connect with a group of people once a week and then they’d have each other in between when I’m not there. And the boys, when I meet with them individually, I’d be like, look at all these things. You’re great. And exactly what they’re saying. They’re like, I don’t see this, no one ever says this to me, but it’s a, we saw this need for all these young men who would individually say to myself or their guidance counselors or principal, whoever like saw the distress in them.

[00:46:50] Triena McGuirk: And so we saw there was this need for a young men’s group. They would be like, yeah. Okay. I’m up for it. I could do that. And they never came. I even negotiated that they get community hours. I said, use it. And I said, you guys get, I’ll buy you pizza. That’s actually not. I brought cookies and stuff. The school bought the pizza.

[00:47:11] Triena McGuirk: Um, they got the community hours to come. So I said, you have social currency to say, Hey man, I’m just doing it for my community hours. Right. You know, give an excuse. I just want the free lunch. And they still wouldn’t come.

[00:47:23] Muhammad Kermalli: And so

[00:47:26] Triena McGuirk: I, I don’t know. I have theories. I think one of the theories is being vulnerable and being vulnerable and not just, and like that whole boys don’t cry nonsense or that they don’t experience things like vulnerability.

[00:47:42] Triena McGuirk: Like we were saying with Nicole earlier, too vulnerability strength. Right. Like, and, and I think just seeing with all these kids, there’s a real culture of, you know, your man, suck it up, walk it off. Don’t say anything or, or if you say something genuinely nice to someone like, oh, why are you saying like that?

[00:48:00] Triena McGuirk: Like, what are you doing? So

[00:48:03] Marco Mo: I’ve taught my son this and I do it all the time. Uh, and I have to prove it to him that works. I said, you know, you coming on compliments, people seems weird. And again, cause that’s oh, weird. Right. So I said, you know, ask them about a choice they made. You know, so for example, we were at a restaurant up there and, um, it was just a couple of weeks ago, more than a couple weeks ago.

[00:48:24] Marco Mo: Um, and a waiter was serving us, uh, and great guy. And I noticed that he was covering his tattoo. So I said, you know, as he was, as he was going through, as he told me to start with that, Dude just opened up. Yeah, he could, he was so proud, but you want to take the whole thing off, show everything and that’s cool, but no, but, but the thing is if you compliment or you ask people, but why did did something?

[00:48:46] Marco Mo: Um, uh, they, you know, why did you choose that? Why did that? And let them tell your story, uh, and you’re sincere about it. You actually get them open up completely. You know, you don’t have to be weird and say, Hey, it’s nice. This, this, this, you know, I asked them, you know, why’d you choose that? And they would tell the story and it leads to all sorts of other things, you know?

[00:49:04] Marco Mo: Cause especially things like tattoos are very personal. So Brandon or my son just saw that and I said, look, that’s how easy it is to make someone’s day. Yeah. Just ask them why they made that choice. It doesn’t have come across as creepy. It can just be a very, you know, like, you know, we had, um, you know, we’re renting out a place and we had a tenant come in and he was very standoffish and I walked in and I, after he sort of settled in, I asked him, what is.

[00:49:29] Marco Mo: So your shoes are the cleanest shoes I’ve ever seen in my life. And the boom open up completely because apparently people care about these things like to ethic reach. They didn’t know that they didn’t know that did not know that it’s like it’s glaringly white. Right. And I was like, how much time do you spend on those shoes?

[00:49:45] Marco Mo: Oh, he was off completely let his guard down and just talk great all the time. Right. And again, I do that to demonstrate to my son that it’s not hard to get that observe and observe and ask about people’s choices because that’s what people need to hear, that they made a good choice. But if you say you have any size that yeah.

[00:50:03] Marco Mo: That comes across as weird. But if you say, Hey, um, uh, I love what you do, that jacket. It’s a good combo. Yeah. And then people open up your work. It actually works. And if the, again, statistics are true, half the people you meet out there or just dying to tell you why they did that.

[00:50:22] Triena McGuirk: We were just making eye contact with someone.

[00:50:25] Triena McGuirk: Like if you just make eye contact and smile, Then we’ll go, Hey leaks. Like when I say hi to everyone, I go for a walk and they’re like, oh my gosh, hi. I’m not anticipating someone to like, say hi to them. Very defensive

[00:50:44] Marco Mo: in front of me. Yeah. I’ll hopefully that’s done soon,

[00:50:47] Muhammad Kermalli: honestly, but that’s, that’s just, it it’s a lot of times people get to these points and then we stop and we don’t take that next step. And what I just love about you constantly repeating it is not only do you take the step, you’re like, yeah, no big deal.

[00:51:04] Marco Mo: There’s no downside risk. There is no risk. And the

[00:51:06] Muhammad Kermalli: greater risk was actually staying where you were to you and it’s so it’s so obvious to you.

[00:51:12] Marco Mo: Why wouldn’t I, well, you had cookies and coffee.

[00:51:20] Marco Mo: there’s no downside here at all. I’m hearing. No, but it’s true. I think, and I wish, you know, I say these things openly and I joke about it. I wish that my son could see how easy it could be and not have to go through what I did, you know, being a jerk and, you know, first being bullied and then being a jerk to offset the bullying and then sort of just keeping my space.

[00:51:43] Marco Mo: But, you know, by being this horrible little runt, um, I was able to sort of create the space and realizing, and then taking that stupid behavior into the workplace as well. It did serve me. I don’t know why it shouldn’t have, um, and then quite often it does. And it does,

[00:52:00] Muhammad Kermalli: it does.

[00:52:01] Marco Mo: It’s like all that this world, it is, it, it, you, you promote what you permit.

[00:52:07] Muhammad Kermalli: So the two types of people that talk to on this point is one is the person trying to get somewhere who’s stuck. But one is also the person who is also hiding under this person. Of that oppressor. Yeah. And there’s a bed, youth statistics said anything. It would give you an interesting number. They keep with it, the oppressors now I’m talking about, and they are oppressors because it reinforces that look, um, it’s promoted.

[00:52:35] Muhammad Kermalli: It’s permitted, it’s my space. I’m safe here

[00:52:37] Marco Mo: and also get stuff from

[00:52:38] Muhammad Kermalli: it. And there’s there’s reward. There’s an upside. There it is. So the downside management on that is I feel like crap, but I can deal with that. I hope they

[00:52:48] Marco Mo: feel the crap cause I did. I wonder if a lot of people do I think, Hey, you know what, I, I can swallow that.

[00:52:54] Triena McGuirk: I think people are generally good. I think there’s a genuine goodness. And I really believe that too. And I think we,

[00:53:04] Muhammad Kermalli: you can’t prove otherwise I can’t, I, you said you were that guy. Yeah, I

[00:53:08] Marco Mo: would, yeah. I would say for sure. Right. I think there was a general universal, you know, golden rule type of thing.

[00:53:13] Marco Mo: Right. You want to be treated as you’re treated. And so, you know, oftentimes the, uh, I think people are generally apathetic and if I could be honest and then the good people that they want to be good too. Uh, but I think the vast majority of myself included, you know, I’ll see horrible things and I’m sorry, that horrible thing happened.

[00:53:30] Marco Mo: And I keep on moving on. Like, I, I I’m very. You don’t internalize it.

[00:53:35] Triena McGuirk: I think that might be the difference is you don’t you have that. You might have that internal, like you might have that moment of internalization, but then you filter through it. So,

[00:53:44] Marco Mo: yeah. So you’ve, you’ve nailed it. That’s what the therapist said to me.

[00:53:47] Marco Mo: He goes to you, do you not feel things? And I go, no, no, no. The truth is I feel it. I give it a ranking and then it’s processed. So that’s what my son’s struggling with. I said not everything’s a 10 man. Like, you know, if you see emotion coming a mile away, you can assign, that’s probably a one that it hit.

[00:54:04] Marco Mo: That’s a one, how am I gonna respond to it to one like this? Oh, there it goes. So, so the therapist would say to you, well, you got to feel it. Get in there. I’m like, dude, it’s already processed. It’s done. Yeah. But I think to my son, that was very hurtful because he couldn’t get there. He doesn’t

[00:54:20] Triena McGuirk: have that

[00:54:21] Marco Mo: or just living long enough.

[00:54:24] Marco Mo: Yeah. So I think that was, that was my mistake. Cause I assume why can’t you just do it. But he couldn’t. And so I think it’s a skill. I contributed to a lot of anxiety as well, because this is how your dad does it. And he’s like, now I can’t do what my dad does either. Right now I feel doubly bad about myself.

[00:54:41] Marco Mo: So I’ve learned, I stopped doing that. What do you do now? I take my time with it,

[00:54:49] Muhammad Kermalli: but, oh, that’s your son. So it’s not something,

[00:54:51] Marco Mo: this is not something to do some cost. It’s just how you process emotions. Right? I’m

[00:54:55] Triena McGuirk: you have to sit with it. And she wanted some people, like if they have to process it, they have.

[00:54:59] Triena McGuirk: And I think sometimes they don’t always know where the emotion is coming from because it’s so uncomfortable. Right. So we get caught up in the overwhelming. And, um, you know, there’s like you said, there’s a whole developmental,

[00:55:12] Marco Mo: I’ve become a reductionist in that sense and that I can reduce it down to seeing the flow of neurochemicals.

[00:55:18] Marco Mo: Right. That’s what that is. I’m not going to give it too much effort. Um, it’s all weight, right. We choose, or we give way to, right. So here’s an example of people feel bad about stuff, right? Let’s say I didn’t like you. And I said a bunch of stuff too, in a language you didn’t understand, you just look over here on what you said.

[00:55:32] Marco Mo: And so that’s how I, I see things, right. If I don’t like to hear it, it literally becomes a language. I understand. You could swear to me in whatever language erasing. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, totally awesome. It’s a sound,

[00:55:45] Muhammad Kermalli: th that’s why I like having conversation because when I would internalize it would take it, like it meant everything.

[00:55:53] Muhammad Kermalli: Right. And then, and then I got to a point that I was like, why am I giving this so much weight? And then usually, usually what happens in that situation? Uh, what is it? Like? It goes the opposite way, but if it gets extreme now give nothing wait. Yeah. And then you’re like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay.

[00:56:13] Marco Mo: So,

[00:56:13] Muhammad Kermalli: so you see how he says that it’s weightless come back, but

[00:56:17] Triena McGuirk: then you’re a constant mechanism.

[00:56:22] Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah. But then we were like, I I’m, I’m thinking I’ve been through this exact thought and I’m like, that doesn’t feel right. Either. I don’t, I’m just saying from my present present, if I have no emotion about stuff or don’t care about how anybody feels, what do you think that’s going to lead to one day, you know?

[00:56:39] Muhammad Kermalli: And I’m like, I can’t have

[00:56:40] Marco Mo: it. So I’m trying to visualize, but with family,

[00:56:43] Muhammad Kermalli: I’m talking about everything with humanity. Yeah. Cause I love humanity, you know, just family love all of your buddy. I want to know. Okay. I want to love everybody. Let’s put it that way. So I want to get there. There’s there’s a thing there.

[00:56:54] Muhammad Kermalli: If I drop them so quickly.

[00:56:55] Marco Mo: Yes. That’s fair enough. So here’s, here’s her. So I, this is how I see it. And I think, um, How you said it, everybody we see everybody’s good. We all like to think that everybody starts off at a 10 and then you keep chipping away until, okay. That’s where we are. Whereas I start the bottom.

[00:57:10] Marco Mo: I expect nothing. I don’t have any until, until both ways, both ways. It’s not just one way. Right. So I sort of start at five and then, and then it becomes a six, it becomes a seven and then we’re talking, but I very rarely start off at a 10. And this is awesome because it’s almost never there. Right. You know,

[00:57:32] Muhammad Kermalli: it, I’m going to say that because I remember saying to him, remember what I said, there was this teacher of mine who once said, you all start with an, a plus in my class, you need to choose to let the A-plus go.

[00:57:44] Muhammad Kermalli: And I remember he talked about sense. So we both talked about our son losing your voice. And I remember having this exact thought in my head because I grew up not seeing good. Or like, I either wasn’t looking for it or didn’t believe it was there. And I said, I do. And then, and then I said, I do not want my son to see the world the same way, because I found out that when you do see the good in people, somehow you extracted from them.

[00:58:09] Muhammad Kermalli: You know, you said it yourself, if you believe there’s something around the corner, you’ll tend to find something. I do that with people. You just said it yourself in another way with business, but I do it with people. So I said, I’d love for my son to see a world where everybody was good. So because when you do that, it extracts the good out of them.

[00:58:29] Muhammad Kermalli: So that’s when I started doing with him, I was like, okay, Give everybody a hundred percent and I’d now do that consciously. I give it to them. And then not only do I do that, so you do the opposite. They both work, I guess. Right. But you give them, you test them on gaining ground. I started a natural test them on losing ground.

[00:58:46] Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah. So I give them opportunities and I go, I wonder if they’ll take this one, like, you know, will they steal $5? No. Okay. Well, let’s do 10. Well, that’s still a hundred. And then I get to a point and some will say, well, my God, you’re putting all this stuff. You’re risking all this. I’m like, yeah. But then I’ll find the price list, this, and I can go through thousands of people for, to find that priceless person, this is the only way to find them that I know of.

[00:59:08] Muhammad Kermalli: So interestingly,

[00:59:10] Marco Mo: you know, uh, you know, I was thinking about is if it draws about back to their kids again, right? So my son’s hurt because you know, he’s been ostracized and it’s all subsequent on at work or at school, sir. And I see what’s because you saw them here, but they only saw you here now, is it their fault that they saw you.

[00:59:25] Marco Mo: You didn’t tell them that, you know you, so that’s the problem with mismatch, man, all sadness and unhappiness comes from Ms. Mismanagement of expectations. Yes.

[00:59:35] Triena McGuirk: I have the conversation all the time, manage your expectations and you hear that it doesn’t matter the relationship it’s true. But at some, like we create these stories in our heads, right.

[00:59:48] Triena McGuirk: We create those stories in our head and it creates expectations. And it’s like, do they know that you expect that maybe you need to have a conversation because they’re, you know, disappointing you. Cause that’s what it comes out as is disappointment or anger, displaced, anger. And it’s like, maybe you should communicate these expectations because they’re not realistic.

[01:00:09] Marco Mo: And then read a line them. Right? Like, you know, especially with kids and friends and everything, you might see them as your only friend, but that you’re just watching. Well, they’re not going to treat you as at hand, you’re just, you know, a seven at best. So, but if you’re the one who walking around and thinking this, it’s not, you you’ve built that up yourself.

[01:00:25] Marco Mo: And so I’m, I’m big on the neutral and it’s not like, prove it to me. It’s nothing prove to me. I’m just going to random guy. I I’m just here, man. Asking them to ruin. Absolutely not. Right. And I just let it flow. Exactly. And then if it feels right, we talk more on who we are. Right. Like, you know, I I’ve been in for about three years now and we’ve been sort of arms length about stuff.

[01:00:44] Marco Mo: Right. And then one time I said, you know what, I’m going to ask him some advice. He has a kid advocate. That’s how you start. Right. Yeah. But if I just move, they want to hook me up. That’s it. I don’t do that. Right. It’s not like I’m, um, you know, I’m not skiddish. I just

[01:01:01] Triena McGuirk: acclimation. Yeah.

[01:01:02] Marco Mo: So we start neutral right in the five.

[01:01:04] Marco Mo: And then I get there in five minutes with a good guy.

[01:01:12] Muhammad Kermalli: Why this is helpful. This is so helpful to two types of people. I think one is the type who is, and I didn’t even see this coming to, like until the middle of our conversation here. I thought we could talk about how people who get stuck, you know, um, can at least figure out here are reasons why you

[01:01:30] Marco Mo: move, how you move and

[01:01:33] Muhammad Kermalli: why and how you move.

[01:01:35] Muhammad Kermalli: Right. And here’s like some great logic to, it’s so simple to understand. And it’s undeniable. I

[01:01:41] Marco Mo: love that. Well, it seems to work at least for me,

[01:01:43] Muhammad Kermalli: well only 20% of times according to them, but it’s still worth it, but it’s still worth it. Yeah. Right. And that’s the other thing that came out of it for me, was that to, for people to understand that it’s not even going to work every single time, like, it doesn’t mean it’s going to get better every time.

[01:02:00] Muhammad Kermalli: But 20%, like you just said, it’s a 20% return. If you gave me a 20% return on my money, I’d be, I’d be like, thank you. That’d be great. So it makes a lot of sense. And the point is is if you didn’t try, you get 0% anyway. Right. And then to the other side of the spectrum, which is, um, the part I’m actually most curious about because you know, those, um, the, the oppressor, I never even saw that.

[01:02:24] Muhammad Kermalli: I never saw that in you ever not in once. I hope that

[01:02:27] Marco Mo: hope that guy’s dead, honestly, for all intents and purposes. Well

[01:02:31] Muhammad Kermalli: then you could. So for that reason, so you can help that person is what I’m trying to say. Cause I think oppressors actually let’s call them that are trying to get out. I really believed that they would want to, I think that they’re there because they don’t feel that they have another choice.

[01:02:46] Muhammad Kermalli: Just like the person who gets stuck depressed. I think that there’s, this, the person gets stuck being the oppressor because that’s all they know. And they look at the, the, the chance that if they take to go the other way, look at all these stand to lose. What’d he say to me, you have to be vulnerable to do that too.

[01:03:02] Muhammad Kermalli: Well, you know, you said your leverage on that was the birth of your child. So it was something else that they had to care for. So deeply that they figured would, um, would be a point where they’d have to be like, I gotta break the cycle somewhere, but they don’t do it necessarily with themselves first.

[01:03:19] Muhammad Kermalli: That’s what I find like you have, I said those

[01:03:21] Marco Mo: words, I said those words specifically in my life, I got to break the cycle. I got stopped. Like, you know, when he was born or something. Yeah. But even then, and I, and I, and I have all gratitude in the world for my parents raised me, but that part wasn’t easy, it wasn’t all great. But I still say, you know what? It is, what it is, you know, it’s moved on, you can’t go back type of thing. And then you sort of look forward. Um, that’s like, what the stop? You know, I, you know, my entire life I’ve really raised my boy.

[01:03:51] Marco Mo: Definitely never raised a hand. That’s just, I can’t do it. Right. Um, but as you were just saying, man, it’s all choices. Like, you know, a lot of, a lot of times I think the previous generation couldn’t make those choices because they felt the weight of tradition and culture and whatever on them that you have to do certain things certain way.

[01:04:10] Marco Mo: It’s terrible, but I am the least traditional culturally inclined person. I’m just whatever I’ll take on bits and pieces of everybody else. And then that’s my culture. Now I am as Canadian identity. I am as Canadian to come. Like, you know what? I like some parts of my, you know, Asian, east, Asian heritage. I love what I am as a Canadian, but nothing really defines me.

[01:04:32] Marco Mo: I don’t do one thing or the other because I’m supposed to do to find you. And it’s easy that way. But, uh, there is no downside to that. There really isn’t. So just don’t okay. It’s so these people don’t like you because of that word, don’t freaking go there and then. Cause, you know, you’ll find somebody else and that’s the idea of abundance, right?

[01:04:51] Marco Mo: You know, if people don’t like you for who you are and you need to change it. So how did you

[01:04:56] Triena McGuirk: change it when your son was born? What was like, what did you, what was your actionable?

[01:05:01] Marco Mo: So the first decision was the first decision was this is it. I live for me. Every decision is for the three of us. Um, which meant that in-laws parents.

[01:05:12] Marco Mo: Yeah. I’ll listen to your stuff, but it’s not going to affect anything. I do. This is your core. This is my core. Right. And I’m pissed off. A lot of people, eloping was the first one, but, uh, eloping was one of them. Right. But, but, but if you choose, you know, your spouse first or you choose your family first, you really can’t go.

[01:05:33] Marco Mo: You really can’t because if you hit, listen to everybody else, I spoken to, I’ve got to be here and here and here and here and here. Well, you don’t have to be here, here, and here. You can just not go. Yeah. And then you’ll find out that the repercussions are never as bad as you think they are you in your head, you think, oh no, these attachments to things, but then you turn out that, um, you know, if you’re not, if you’re not joke about the whole thing and he’s like, yeah, I don’t feel like going today.

[01:05:56] Marco Mo: Cause why you even an excuse don’t want to go. It’s awesome. And then, and then, and, uh, and you realize that, um, you don’t know how many times, but I have

[01:06:08] Triena McGuirk: learned that

[01:06:08] Muhammad Kermalli: later and you don’t even have to give them a reason.

[01:06:11] Marco Mo: I just don’t feel that

[01:06:12] Triena McGuirk: yo, it just gave me that gift. Cause I used to be such a people pleaser and my skin, I would like never stop.

[01:06:18] Triena McGuirk: I’d be running around ragged. And when I got sick, you know, I had to start saying no, cause I was, I was sick. Then as I got better, I’m like, People stop asking me if I was sick or not. I just like, no, I can’t go. They’re like, okay. I’m like, oh my God, this is amazing.

[01:06:33] Marco Mo: Nothing’s better than the cancel plan.

[01:06:37] Marco Mo: You’re like, really? You’re not feeling it. I’m like, cool. I’m done. I’m an introvert by nature. Right. And I turned this, I turned this on when I need to, but it’s true. All of us are the same. Right. So the whole family

[01:06:54] Triena McGuirk: thing, talking to

[01:06:55] Marco Mo: myself, I just live video games. I have no other excuse. But the reality is that you think that if you say no to family, whatnot, there’s going to be all these there really isn’t.

[01:07:06] Marco Mo: Yeah. And if, and if they’re holding that over you, yes. They’re not your people choose those who choose you. Right. And if you’re holding, like yeah, if you have. Conditions to your affection, a hundred percent dude. No, it needs to be unconditional. And then you find that the people who stay will stay in the people who go will go.

[01:07:27] Marco Mo: So I have a handful of friends from university or from high school that are still my friends that still call me every other day in the text, me whatever. That’s 40 years, 30 years then. Yeah.

[01:07:38] Triena McGuirk: That’s a good question. I don’t know if you’ve come across him, but the people that are reaching out from the Facebook messages, how did those conversations go?

[01:07:45] Triena McGuirk: Or was there, yes,

[01:07:47] Marco Mo: I apologize profusely. And it was this via email or by, you know, I tried, well, they’re not gonna give me your number or anything.

[01:07:57] Marco Mo: no, they found me on, on there and it came out harsh and I showed my wife up. This is what I’ve done. I feel terrible about it. And so, you know, I said, you know, Well, it’s generally comes from a place of insecurity, uh, and you know, all those things we talked about and I apologize. I’m so sorry. I know I can’t change it.

[01:08:16] Marco Mo: Just know that I’m, I’m not that person anymore. Uh, it was a horrible person. And, um, and I, again, sincerely, sorry I’ve done this too. And that’s all you could do. And sometimes it was that received. Yeah. I mean, the fact that the say the fact that the seeds plural it’s terrible. Um, but no, it’s true. They, they, some of them said, um, the Facebook group.

[01:08:37] Marco Mo: No. Yeah. Some of them said, um, okay, fine, whatever. It’s move on back on. And some of them just left it at that, you know, left on red, right. Everything. Right. And they, they, they see it to let you know, and I’m more than happy. And I actually did one of those massive, this is back when, just here, I’m apologizing on mass to everybody.

[01:08:54] Marco Mo: I’ve pissed everybody off. And if you know anybody I’m pissed off, please forward to their attention. People actually did take me up on that offer manual

[01:09:01] Muhammad Kermalli: for oppressors. Like, by the way, this is a great way to deal with what’s

[01:09:04] Triena McGuirk: restorative.

[01:09:06] Marco Mo: What’s the worst part of it is that when people got angry at me and came back out and said, Hey, it wasn’t even for reasons.

[01:09:12] Marco Mo: I thought like, what really? I did that too. Oh my gosh. No, seriously. So it’s all of the perception. It’s the person you think you did a thing and you’re like, I don’t know what I did to this person, but I must’ve done something. Right. And, um, you know, it might not be the primary person. It might be something.

[01:09:28] Marco Mo: Secondary. Yeah. Didn’t know. Did not know. So yes. We’re all connected. Yeah. So, you know, I had folks who, handful of folks who said, yeah, this, this didn’t happen. I had no idea I did that, but I do apologize if I did. So it doesn’t really clear your conscience, you still live with this. Right. And you feel bad about it.

[01:09:47] Marco Mo: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:09:48] Triena McGuirk: But it’s, you have to own it. That’s the thing, that’s the differences. But I think when you own something and you can take responsibility, you carry, you carry it in a different way.

[01:09:57] Marco Mo: It becomes the, um, you, you, um, is it, it takes one to know one. And then, so what happens is that you, you become good at spotting it, and then also you become good at telling your son what’s coming.

[01:10:08] Marco Mo: Um, you know, one of the most basic thing I say to them is that, you know, just watch your prep Skinner box, you know, just get a box that the loot box. So, you know, Th they’ll give you the treat your, that crap five times. Yeah. They’ll get their particular crop five times and the six times give you a good, good outcome.

[01:10:24] Marco Mo: And you’re like, okay, I’ll just wait for a six time. Then you don’t have to live like that. You don’t, you don’t have to be in a relationship where you’re treated poorly most of the time. And once in a while you get a good treatment that is not normal. That’s how you get gamblers addicted. And that’s exactly what happens to kids where it, where you have kids.

[01:10:42] Triena McGuirk: Yes,

[01:10:44] Marco Mo: exactly. They do that. So if I keep on pulling this, the slot machine, maybe this would be a good outcome and I can see it with my kid and it killed me. I said, what can I say? Right. He’s going through it. And you can see friends who are treating them horribly for, you know, 80% of time. And once in a while you throw them a bone, he was known as

[01:11:04] Marco Mo: No, they’re not, this is, this is actual abuse. Yeah. This is abuse. And you see that in relationships with friends and spouses, whatever. And it’s like, you know, it’s usually bad, but you, you hang around for a good one. Yeah. That’s not a good relationship. And if you can spot that you’re out, yo see ya. And it’s really just, yeah.

[01:11:23] Marco Mo: It’s not gonna work by you gotta to choose yourself. Yeah. And you see it all the time. You see it all the time. It’s the easiest way to manipulate a kid is that you, you, you randomly give them good, uh, outcomes, but most of the time it’s bad. Sort of see through the bad to get to the good. And that’s a terrible way to treat people, but it’s true.

[01:11:42] Marco Mo: You can

[01:11:42] Muhammad Kermalli: see it. That’s another reason people get ’cause. They figure if I stick around long enough

[01:11:47] Triena McGuirk: and the children are so loving, they do that just because they

[01:11:50] Marco Mo: just

[01:11:54] Muhammad Kermalli: like others. I’ll wait, I’ll wait. I’ll wait. And there it is. I got it. I got a good one. They are good people.

[01:12:02] Marco Mo: Yeah. So you were saying before people holding on to that one piece of good, sometimes you’ve make it up in your head. And even if it’s not, even if it’s not there, you know,

[01:12:12] Triena McGuirk: not actually there it’s like this hidden good.

[01:12:14] Triena McGuirk: Sometimes people see, and like you said, it’s that fallacy or great

[01:12:18] Marco Mo: in their head. It’s like, it’s not to belittle or speak lightly of abusive relationships, but it’s like, you know, if it’s bad, things are happening most of the week and you have that one or two times where the, Hey, no, it’s all good now.

[01:12:32] Marco Mo: That’s not good. That’s not good that that’s literally, you’re playing roulette with people. You know, maybe this one will be good. Yeah. That’s not a good way. And if you spot that and I tell my son, if you spot that, you gotta pull out. You gotta just, yeah. Pull the shoot, man. Um, he doesn’t get it because he’s young and he needs to go through it.

[01:12:50] Marco Mo: Unfortunately, he’s gone through it now. Actually go back and holy smokes, you know, four times out of five, it’s been negative comments about me and my looks, my parents had, I

[01:13:00] Triena McGuirk: think he starts to look. You have to look at your situation without you. You have to kind of step back, pull yourself back and look above and be like, okay, what’s the dynamic

[01:13:09] Marco Mo: here?

[01:13:11] Marco Mo: Because speaking in the third person, because LA before, when he was just going through this, he’s looking for the phone. So it’s already going to contact me, didn’t call me. And you can see that. Yeah, you can see it. And he’s already got anxiety. He’s already got depression. So he’s looking for that, looking for that, now that he stopped expecting it, he can now realize, Hey, this is terrible.

[01:13:33] Marco Mo: This is terrible. How they treat me before, you know, that I had to, uh, you know, I was never important enough, you know? And I said, no. Then I said, you know, to be fair, you could be here. Right. It doesn’t work one way. Right. You know, you know, it takes two. Right. And so let’s sit back. And like I said to you before last week, we’ll talk, is it just make sure now that you’ve gone through this, don’t make anybody else feel the same way.

[01:13:59] Marco Mo: Yeah. So I’m glad he’s going through it in some sense. So

[01:14:02] Muhammad Kermalli: really at the end of the day, he’s getting, he’s getting his power now he’s getting his, uh, his owning his, I hope so it looks like it. I hope it’s not like an overnight thing either. It’s time it’s, uh, like, like most things with people. We’re, we’re not like robots, you just click it and turn on a switch.

[01:14:19] Muhammad Kermalli: Right. There’s and we can go through, um, like, what is it called? Like we fall off the wagon sometimes too. And then we got to come back. We hear that repeatedly. Um, so man, thank you for, for walking us through this, like this philosophy. I think it’s a philosophy.

[01:14:33] Marco Mo: I’m just a random guy, man. I don’t

[01:14:39] Muhammad Kermalli: philosophy on. You know, it’s, it’s about managing that downside. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:14:45] Triena McGuirk: And just attaching yourself and your work into the outcomes of things. I think that’s really important too, right?

[01:14:52] Marco Mo: Like, right. You’re guaranteed the effort, but you’re not guaranteed a result. And that’s a huge thing too. We all think that it’s a linear relationship.

[01:14:59] Marco Mo: If I have to do this much work, I’ll get that result. No, just enjoy the effort. The result may or may not come. And if you only attach yourself to that result, and I think we’re talking about other things in our kids and expectations about school and everything. It’s very dangerous thing to say. I’ll only be happy if I get it right.

[01:15:15] Marco Mo: Oh man. Yes. That’s just setting yourself up for failure. It’s just sometimes it’s odds. Sometimes it’s nothing to do with your ability, you know, like if they can take what we’re using, just random things wrong with me. Right. But here’s the thing. If they, if they only take a hundred. And you’re a hundred first.

[01:15:30] Marco Mo: There’s nothing wrong with you. It was an arbitrary cutoff. And I think so if my kid, I th I say, look, just enjoy the effort. Um, and, and what did you learn? And, um, if, if a good result comes out of this wonderful, but don’t, don’t hang your happiness on the result because it may not come, you know, whatever for everything, you know, we could try our best in our business and do everything we think is right.

[01:15:54] Marco Mo: May not come. It’s like, um, well, stocks is easy, you know, it’s a, it’s steps up elevator down happens all the time. All right. And, and, but that is everything like, you know, like my business cut in half 60% and pandemic hit, you know, we went from the 40 people that trimmed it down to 16. Wow. That hurts. That hurts.

[01:16:14] Marco Mo: Right. But you just, you know, the mistake is expecting can continue. Right. What I should have assumed was, yeah, this could happen at eight in time. I remember him

[01:16:22] Muhammad Kermalli: saying, don’t wait for the knockout punch. Yes. That’s huge. Right. Like if you hang around long. Setting yourself up for it.

[01:16:31] Marco Mo: You got it. Yeah. You

[01:16:32] Muhammad Kermalli: better move before the knockout punch.

[01:16:34] Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah. I love that because that if you don’t move,

[01:16:38] Triena McGuirk: don’t

[01:16:38] Muhammad Kermalli: move because of the happiness you move because of the fear of staying here for the

[01:16:44] Marco Mo: upon, it absolutely comes in the best example is using stocks as an analogy. People buy a thing and they just believe in the thing. And I’m like, dude, it’s just a ticker.

[01:16:55] Marco Mo: It’s literally just a number on a screen. You know why? Right. It, the zero it’s just, just take the 20% you got left and do something else with it. Like you don’t have to write it to zero. Just, it’s always about where’s the next dollar coming from. It might not be that stock. It could be different stock. So take that dollar amount and put it somewhere else and go up.

[01:17:12] Marco Mo: But I think people. The problem is people. They make a decision. They tried to defend that decision, the same way cults work, you know, same way things work, where they don’t, they feel stupid for making the decision. So they double down. Yeah. You think about it. It’s true. That a lot of way you buy a thing, you join a whatever.

[01:17:31] Marco Mo: Listen, the devil. I know, right? Yeah. Yeah. They double down and it’s more, it’s more embarrassing for them that they, oh, shoot. You know, I got it wrong. I’ll just double down. No man. Yeah, man. It’s bad. Mistake move. And then just, and it’s in a time I heard

[01:17:47] Muhammad Kermalli: it. I heard this. I apologize if you must then drop it.

[01:17:50] Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah.

[01:17:52] Marco Mo: Yeah. One of the what’s that thing like yeah. The other one, the other one would be, you know, I can pick up the pieces, organized, leave me the fuck there and walk away. It’s true. Why do you have to pick up the pieces? Is there any pieces you want? Yes. Right. Just smashed the bits or whatever. We’ll move on.

[01:18:11] Marco Mo: Right. I mean, I think far too many of us are trying to pick up the pieces and glue it back together and then somehow expect it to be the same. Yeah.

[01:18:22] Muhammad Kermalli: Let’s see how that they can at least get to me. I think it’s a great survivors handbook getting through some of these things, because the alternative is people get stuck and, and they, they want to see like this, this like, again, this whole promise of something on the other side and he doesn’t, he doesn’t worry about that.

[01:18:42] Muhammad Kermalli: It’s just, you go, you gotta go and you gotta go. Now you have 30 seconds to decide this. I wonder if like something that’s not a small. But it

[01:18:51] Marco Mo: wasn’t, it wasn’t Yolo.

[01:18:55] Muhammad Kermalli: If you can get somebody to make a decision like that, sometimes we don’t make that decisions for ourselves. It takes somebody else, you know, but we gotta be that person for ourselves to go look, you got 30 seconds to decide this.

[01:19:06] Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah.

[01:19:06] Triena McGuirk: But I think part of that too, is like you said, I don’t think about the past, the past of the past. You said that earlier or something to that effect, but you’re also not worrying about the future. Right. And I think that’s part of it too, because when you think about the past, you invite depression, when you think about the future, you can create anxiety.

[01:19:24] Triena McGuirk: Right. So you’re when you’re, you’re being really

[01:19:28] Marco Mo: neutral. Yeah. I would say one thing, uh, sort of, sort of wrapping up is, is the idea that we often overestimate bad things a hundred percent. We’re just, we just testify so badly. And we’re like, yeah. We’re like, oh, if I do this all already, no, maybe none of that’s going to have.

[01:19:48] Marco Mo: And, um, and that’s what I mean, like, I think a lot of us just make that mistake that if we don’t do this, all these bad things will happen. This person won’t

[01:19:56] Triena McGuirk: like hardwired to like see risk that’s

[01:19:59] Marco Mo: that’s who we are, that’s who we are. Right. So I think the idea is that yeah, there is risk there, but are you sure you’ve assessed it?

[01:20:06] Marco Mo: Are you sure? You’re right, because it’s still guests at the end of the day, it’s still best guesses. Right. So, um, so I just assume that the upside is always more and that’s my trading bracket, right? Negative three plus nine. I have a negative three downside of my trades. Once I hit negative three, I sell no matter what, but I let my winners ride 9% in the cell at that point, either as well.

[01:20:25] Marco Mo: So I always make three times as much as I lose.

[01:20:27] Triena McGuirk: So a negative three to nine, I got my, my kid wants to do this. So I got to learn about

[01:20:31] Marco Mo: this now, negative three, nine. It’s different now because the markets are insane. They’re flicking 50% of the day, the reason, but you can just pick a new bracket, right. As long as the downside is no three X less than your upside, then that’s risk management.

[01:20:45] Marco Mo: Right. Um, and, and stick by. And they can’t change rules every single time. No. Yeah. Or it’s not a rule. Yeah, exactly. Right. So, yeah, that’s true. I swear. I, as you know, I think people far overestimate downside really do.

[01:21:05] Muhammad Kermalli: That’s what he doesn’t do. He

[01:21:08] Marco Mo: doesn’t, I’m ignorant downside. It’s far better to be ignorant.

[01:21:12] Marco Mo: Ignorance is bliss, you know? Um, I don’t think you’re ignorant. I’m pretty ignorant. I’m pretty ignorant,

[01:21:21] Muhammad Kermalli: right? Yeah. Um, I think you, you, you take a look at your, your circumstance, your experience, you really are, to me an example of how to take a situation. And like at that moment, like detach from it and you call it being neutral and your ability to detach from that.

[01:21:40] Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah, like it’s, um, it’s, it’s like the basis for your strep because it, it prevents you from staying in that spot and enables you to move. Um, it’s the same thing. Now I’m trying to think, because I was going to ask you as a last word. I mean, we’re here to talk to people and hopefully show this to people who are trying to make a change, right.

[01:22:01] Muhammad Kermalli: Or who are stuck somewhere. My own micro Sumption was always that they’re stuck in a depressed or depressed position. I didn’t think about the oppressor’s position until right now. And I was like, people are also stuck there and, you know, for them to detach from all of that thing that keeps them in that oppressive role.

[01:22:20] Muhammad Kermalli: What’s your final word to them? Give them encouragement. Who would you say?

[01:22:26] Marco Mo: Well, I think, yeah, well, I mean it, in that again, the main thing is understand that that comes from somewhere. Like I don’t, you know, meaning that. Whatever you’re acting out. It’s, uh, some, uh, cumulation of all your experiences in the past, and you feel that this is the best way forward.

[01:22:45] Marco Mo: Uh, looking back, I would say that, no, it was stupid. You didn’t, he didn’t have to be that wasn’t the only way forward. Sure. But now

[01:22:51] Muhammad Kermalli: you’re here. So now what, what do you mean? Like did he to the person who’s there, right? They didn’t have to. They chose and here they

[01:22:58] Marco Mo: are and you want to get others. Yeah. Well, I think that the main thing is that it’s moment to moment.

[01:23:03] Marco Mo: You don’t, you don’t have to be really, if you’re talking about, do I have to be this person? The answer is no, you could simply choose the next thing you do. The next dollar you make, whatever the heck it is, you know, you you’ve, you’ve invested in this personality. You feel that’s gotten you this this way.

[01:23:21] Marco Mo: You can stop. Like you just, you can literally stop in the time, but most people are afraid because they’re far more worried about being consistent. They want to be who I am. They’ve presented. Um, that’s what oftentimes when people, yes. Cause they feel okay they’re going elsewhere. But I think the problem is that people are so worried about being consistent.

[01:23:42] Marco Mo: Uh, that it, it, it, it bogs them down. That’s why people, when they have getting really bad spots or deepen or whatever, they’ve been in the move, so they don’t have to complete a new show somewhere else. They don’t have to be a same person anymore. Most of us just act in the way, because we want to stay consistent with the way we’ve been.

[01:23:59] Marco Mo: But people find, you know, there’s this expectation. Yeah. Taking the kids out of school, uh, is a good way, you know, uh, you know, if you’re in a bad situation in this part of town and this community, just leave the community and go somewhere else. It could be a different person. But I think a lot of people, they, they’re far more worried about being inconsistent.

[01:24:14] Marco Mo: And for some reason that holds them back or they say, oh, I can’t, I can’t possibly Southern Gorton be super social because people don’t see me as that I’m embarrassed or they can’t possibly not see me as this powered high bay. Guy. Um, cause that’s all. Yes, you can. No one gives a shit. It’s truly, nobody actually cares and people generally adapt pretty quickly.

[01:24:38] Marco Mo: Okay. So, all right. Oh, there’s a change. Yeah. I think that’s a problem. People think that I have to keep an acting this way because this is what people always know. And you know, we’re humans, we like to categorize things, right. That’s our default, right? This is friend or both threat or not threat. And so, and people automatically have the assumption as I did that.

[01:24:56] Marco Mo: If you’re not a threat, you must be prey. It’s not true. Mm mm. So to your point, how do you get out of this? It’s it’s really a choice. Your, your next thing you say to somebody, it doesn’t have to be cool. Yeah. You know, the next thing you say, somebody could be very positive. Uh, you know, you have a, an employee that you’re used to some bosses pound on employees.

[01:25:15] Marco Mo: Yeah. You don’t have to, you know, your next word you say to your kid, doesn’t have to be cruel. It doesn’t have to be passively. You choose and you put, I just said, just stop for a moment. Right? That’s it that’s really it. And then it just becomes a habit of not being a jerk, homeless isn’t vanilla. It is habit it’s habit.

[01:25:35] Marco Mo: It is, it is a habit. You can make it a habit to be, it is a habit. It is a habit. And then, um, so I would say that, you know, cause it was a conscious choice for me to, I can’t be this way anymore. I just can’t it sucks. Right. Because then you’re always like, all right, who would I piss off now? Um, and then you’re playing it through your head.

[01:25:56] Marco Mo: So I’d rather just not have those. Yeah. Thank you man. Hey man, I really appreciate that again. Just some random guy here, man. Keep saying that, like I’m not, yeah, that’s true. I’ve done nothing of note.