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Trusting the Process

with Moez Bawania

In this episode of Breaking, we sit down with Moez Bawania, COO and Co-Founder of AMLB CPAs and Consulting.

Passionate about people and purpose. Moez takes the time to deeply understand the “why”, goals and pain points of his clients then digs in to address these head-on. He brings a unique perspective, having led teams of up to 40 people in the areas of finance, audit, innovation and financial crime management, working in 10+ countries globally and industries ranging from financial services to not-for-profit.

Moez is a Chartered Accountant, holds a Bachelor of Business Administration from Wilfrid Laurier University, is a Xero Certified Advisor, Quickbooks ProAdvisor and has completed further certifications in analytics, cybersecurity and people leadership.


  • Immigrating to Canada and adjusting to the Canadian school system.
  • How he overcame speech impediment.
  • Turning disadvantages into opportunities.
  • His appreciation for Canada and everything being a Canadian has to offer.
  • Strategic thinking and taking risks; how it helped him and his partner branch off to start their own business.
  • And much more.


Find Moez Bawania at



Muhammad Kermalli –

Triena McGuirk –


Min Woo Park & Diana Hong @ 6 Story –

Episode Transcript

*This transcription was made for your convenience. Please excuse any mistakes the automated service made.

Muhammad Kermalli: So. Uh, welcome Moez Bawania to the breaking, uh, podcast. It’s good to have you here. And have you share your story, uh, about how, you know, you were able and are still able till today to work on your development by helping others develop on, on their, or helping others work on their development. So

Moez Bawania: thank you.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. Pleasure to be here, be with somebody who inspires me so much.

Muhammad Kermalli: It’s really, I dunno, it’s interesting. Even with our kind of like connection that we’ve had, right. From a soccer field, which neither one of us intended to meet each other on. Right. It just, we happen to be on a team together. Yeah. And, um, recently I actually looked at that picture again,

Moez Bawania: it was blue colored shirts.

Moez Bawania: I remember

Muhammad Kermalli: like, it’s so funny, right? Like, uh, what does that man city no know exactly like man city, but yeah, it was

Akmal Farah: a good. And

Muhammad Kermalli: that the team played really well together. And I was like, I always remember. So here’s kind of like what, what I recall of Moise, right. Was like, okay, so there’s this really like classy guy who I, who plays deep with me.

Muhammad Kermalli: And, um, never had a, there was never ever that I ever sense, like a negative vibe coming from you. Okay. You sure you

Moez Bawania: get this alone lot? It’s so funny. I would ask her why probably she would say

Muhammad Kermalli: it is never like a negative vibe coming from you. And I think that is like, I’m like, I mean, you don’t think of it right away, but as I recall, I’m like, yeah, there’s never been a negative vibe I get from this guy.

Muhammad Kermalli: And then even after, uh, you know, years go by and you, you know, and somehow in social media, we reconnect you then start this business that you’re into today. And we, we meet a couple of times. I don’t know what or once. And I’m like, yeah, yeah. He’s yeah. Obviously this guy is gonna do great. What I didn’t understand or didn’t see at all is like, you know, like there’s a, if we already equated to like water, like there’s a surface and it’s like calm.

Muhammad Kermalli: Right. It looks calm up here. Right. And what I didn’t know was all of the stuff underneath that, that it’s like, uh, you have, uh, you have an interesting pass and oh, I can see now why you might even have a doubt about something. And I was like, wow. Okay. Um, I find that so interesting because a lot of times when people just look at us, they don’t know like the rest of it.

Muhammad Kermalli: So if somebody were to have met you today, like I was shocked when, when you talked about, was it in one of your somewhere I read, or you said it to me about when you were growing up and you know, how things were back then? Yeah. So. Were you born here? I was born in

Moez Bawania: Dubai. Uh, but by the way, interesting about soccer because, you know, even though you’re sitting, like I was scared of came across with a positive vibe.

Moez Bawania: Right. So competitive in my mind, I’m just like, you know, angry because you want to win that game. But yeah. So I think that’s what it is. Right. It’s like, but outwardly you’re trying to be a stable and patient and call them, uh, because you know, there’s a team. Yeah. Well, well you actually

Muhammad Kermalli: processing that.

Muhammad Kermalli: Okay. I’m mad and I’m not going to show it. Or were you just like, it was this how you dealt with it? Cause you know, me, when we were playing on a soccer field, I would show it, man. I would be like, oh,

Moez Bawania: I got, I got a great vibe from you though. I got like a, yeah. That’s why I always thought of you as like the leader of the team, uh, by action.

Moez Bawania: Uh, and then also by words, and for me it was just more like, just do your thing, play a good game and don’t let your team down. Uh, yeah. So I don’t know if it was intentional that way, but I feel like I always said, okay, outwardly I don’t want to get angry at people because I know we can demotivate them, should get them down.

Moez Bawania: But internally I was going through all these things. Of

Muhammad Kermalli: course, I dunno. It just looked like it was like you were so, so like it’s like the deeply intelligent that don’t ever get out of their sorts, you know? And their temperament is great. So you’ve had all that is, this is my image of you anyway, but you were saying device, so that’s where you were born.

Moez Bawania: Dubai. Okay. Yeah. Uh, we moved to Canada, whatever it was. Seven. Seven. Okay. Yeah. So great one.

Muhammad Kermalli: So it was Dubai at that time, like what Dubai is. Or was it something like this, like, eh, this place in the desert somewhere? I don’t

Moez Bawania: think it was that, no, I wasn’t. At that time in the mid eighties, that was not built up yet.

Moez Bawania: Uh, I think that was closer to like what, like early nineties,

Muhammad Kermalli: you never tasted the glitz of Dubai or saw the glitz in Dubai or was it still

Moez Bawania: there around that time? I was so young. I was like, you know, less than seven. So my, my glitz of Dubai was, uh, uh, taken me so far back

Moez Bawania: I think we had a

Muhammad Kermalli: yeah, I remember it was

Moez Bawania: but my memories from Dubai are by, uh, my parents in the house of a family in the neighborhood. Uh, cause you know, Indians, there was, uh, you know, sub Indians there and there was a growing population of sort of these immigrant workers coming to Dubai to make a living. And so every Friday night we would go over to one of my dad’s friend’s house and you would have like a tabla and a harmonica and they would be in a circle and they would all be singing songs, playing music, and it would be this like really fun get together.

Moez Bawania: The kids would at the time it would be playing Atari of course, other games that probably do longer exist today. So those are my memories of, you know, Dubai, it’s sort of like that really family and community feel with immigrants that had come over.

Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah, I hear that a lot. Um, because you couldn’t really with the rest of society.

Muhammad Kermalli: There was such a huge disconnect, a huge gap. So then the ones that you do know are even more intimately connected. Right? Exactly. So you leave that and you come over straight to,

Moez Bawania: yeah, we came straight to Canada, uh, and my father was a banker in Dubai, but you come here obviously at your, uh, you don’t have Canadian experience.

Moez Bawania: You don’t have one. Yeah. We could go through that. Right. Yeah. And you don’t have a Canadian education. And so you’re like, you know, you come with somebody because you know that you have to start a business and that’s how you get accepted. Uh, and you’re doing it for your kid’s education. Right. Right. So, uh, you know, like a lot of, uh, Indians back then, it was a convenience store.

Moez Bawania: So gateway, cigar store and, uh, mark available, uh, that, that was, that was, you guys started out with us, you know, I, I feel like we did start it, but we had bought it, but it was one of the, we were probably like the second or third odor. It was quite early on. And now that that bull has really evolved. Uh, so yeah.

Moez Bawania: I have some early memories as like, uh, our very young child, uh, stocking, you know, the, exactly. You do that. And, uh, yeah. Then we moved to a forklift park

Muhammad Kermalli: and you had just moved. Right. How old were you then? That’s seven. So you’re seven. So what a great is that like three or

Moez Bawania: two or something? It’s like grade one going into

Muhammad Kermalli: two.

Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah. How was that? Like,

Moez Bawania: uh, you know, you come here, your English isn’t very good. So right away, it’s like, well, ESL, English as a second language. Well, that was you talk right now. Your ESL student. That’s interesting. Cool. Okay. Yeah. I, I think we were, we weren’t actually placed in ESL, but they were sort of talking to us about that.

Moez Bawania: Right. And say, let’s assess you. And so it’s such a different experience than a Dubai where you’re like, you know, I think we were in a private Montessori school. And then you come here and, you know, it’s sort of a shift just because of where you are. Uh, and of course you feel like an outsider. There’s a bunch of people that have been friends, you know, from junior kindergarten, in other words that were coming into this environment, uh, you know, the

Muhammad Kermalli: Kings of the hill to yeah, right.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. To the new kids on the block. Yeah, exactly. And back then, those guys were popular kids on the block. That’s true. That’s right. That’s why we liked

Muhammad Kermalli: them so much. So, uh, so, so there’s this right away. There’s this gap in the language and that’s not your only challenge.

Moez Bawania: No, I end up back to them and I don’t talk about this a lot, but I had a staggering problem as well.

Moez Bawania: I still do a little bit. And so when you are already at a bit, bit of a disadvantage with your English language skills, then you have this sort of stammer or when you get, uh, I feel like, I think faster than I speak really. So when I try to speak and catch up to my, my thinking, and if I don’t manage that, then I, you know, start going down this path.

Moez Bawania: Right. Or at least I did when I was a kid. And so I have a whole story about that. I could share if you will. It, but, uh, uh, yeah. So, you know, this is

Muhammad Kermalli: the time that you were seven years old, six years old, you moved here. Is that when you start realizing that this is, or do you ever feel like there’s something different about me, aside from the language?

Muhammad Kermalli: Is there ever, like, was that, that was it. Yeah, like amplify to you, it was it so amplified too? Or how did you realize, or how did you think that you had a stammering thing that,

Moez Bawania: uh, well, I think that definitely it was pronounced enough. Okay. That, uh, the first time I realized that was when I was being fun of.

Moez Bawania: Okay. And, uh, I was in great too, but I can remember this still, like it’s in my blood and there’s a couple of kids on the side. And, uh, we used to play this game called spy and other people. And so I was part of this game, so I am a victim, but I’m also a culprit, uh, because, uh, I would be in a position where if somebody else was doing something, I’d be like, look, let’s fire that person.

Moez Bawania: And then we would sort of laugh. And then I was now subject to being the victim. And so it’s very interesting because that position to that you’re like, wow, that’s such a cruel thing to do to be a culprit because now I feel what it’s like to be a victim, especially when it’s sometimes even your old friends that are doing that to you.

Moez Bawania: Uh, so that was when I, I sort of knew as a kid that I had this thing that I had to deal with. Okay. Then I had to go to these speech therapy classes, uh, Wednesdays at 3:30 PM. The, uh, there’ll be, uh, I know it’s a bit in school saying, boys, please come down to the office, come down to the office. But like, everybody knew like that boys is going down for the speech therapy class, but it’s like, you know, by my class.

Moez Bawania: And so they, they dosed it for a couple of times. I just used, so they wouldn’t announce it, but it was embarrassing because everybody knows this guy is going to this special class to work on this problem that he has. So yeah, that was, that was sort of where I felt. Okay. That’s a bit different, huh.

Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah.

Muhammad Kermalli: And, um, and so as you’re going through it, you talked about the. The kind of like the, the reactions or the behavior of others towards this particular sort of, you know, us a characteristic or quality. I consider a quality that you can think faster than the average person. It’s kind of like how I see it now.

Muhammad Kermalli: Right. But you think fast, that’s a, that’s a good thing, but obviously, right. That’s not what they’re going to say. No,

Moez Bawania: for sure. Uh, what I will say is that experience taught me a lot, a little bit because going to the speech therapy class right now, I’m around five or six other kids that have it way worse than me.

Moez Bawania: Okay. So when you’re in your little bubble and your friends who don’t have that issue, then you have it like really bad. And then you go into this environment that you’re like, everybody is the same, but actually has it even more difficult than you do. And then you can thank your lucky stars for where you’re at and you say, how am I going to help others as well?

Moez Bawania: How can I be somebody here who was like positive? Like I was thinking about that as like a kid, because I thought, well, I could see myself in there, but I’m like, I, if I have it bad as a victim, how bad does this kid have it at school? Like, I couldn’t even imagine that. So, uh, I, I could remember even like at that early age, I was like trying to talk to some other of the other kids, but also being self-conscious and say, I don’t really want to be here.

Moez Bawania: I don’t belong here. There’s all these conflicting feelings. You have ego, right. Pride. Right. Defensiveness. And it also, you know, kind of trying to use that in a positive way, if that makes sense.

Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah. I, I, I understand it a hundred percent when you say that way, but too, it’s funny, you talk about the spy game, right.

Muhammad Kermalli: And the culprit and the victims and you participate, we all, it is a playground, right? It’s a playground and we didn’t read books back then on, you know, all these things that we’ve read since then, um, on, on etiquettes or behaviors or whatever. So we’re, we’re kids and we’re new to this whole place. So we’ve got all this adjusted.

Muhammad Kermalli: To do so we’re looking for our successes wherever we find them. And even if it means going to the level of, okay, well there’s a victim, let me feel strong by doing this. Um, so it’s, it’s very common that it happened, but when it’s on you, you, you started talking about it, but then you, you didn’t tell me the whole story.

Muhammad Kermalli: So I was curious about that, like the first time I remember. Right. Right. And, um, and so now they’re like talking about you on that playground.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. So actually it was in the classroom and I just, I just noticed it right. Because it was one of my friends who would normally be with B. I just sort of noticed him in this sort of other group.

Moez Bawania: Uh, and then it, like, I got this like feeling of like, whoa, I just kinda like, it just pulled the carpet from underneath me. What do you mean? Because you feel like, okay, because you have a friend circle, let’s say you have like two or three people. Right. And then one of those people now is with the people that are like a betrayal kind of second betrayal, you know?

Moez Bawania: And when you were seven and that’s everything to you, right. You’re like, oh my like two best friends in the whole wide world. I was going to conquer everything with them. But no one of them is spying on me. But, uh, you know, that didn’t last long actually. Uh, him and I are good friends. Yeah. Knowing

Muhammad Kermalli: where your friends are that

Moez Bawania: make good, good out of it.

Moez Bawania: Right. But the part about, but at that moment, yeah. At that little bit, it was tough. Uh, the part about the stammering that I think that what I look back at, and I talked to some of, some people about this who have the same issue that they’ve dealt with it. Right. It, it hits my vocabulary beyond the level that most people have, because I had to find words to switch out for words that are.

Moez Bawania: More frequently. Stanborough

Muhammad Kermalli: okay.

Moez Bawania: So that’s the strategy. Unbelievable. Right. And so now if I’m trying to write something, I could probably come up with wording pretty quickly and I see that it’s difficult for other, because they haven’t had to deal with this and it’s been, it was painful growing up because I had to always find a switch, a switch, a switch, but it’s this thing years and years of doing that has kind of created this vocabulary, this ability to do that.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. Well, I, and I didn’t really think about it that way until like, probably a couple of years ago. Right. When I was starting to talk to a couple of people with the same, uh, quality as you call it. And when we started talking to each other and I said, well, what do you see as the positive out of that?

Moez Bawania: Because I’m always trying to look for that now, uh, as an entrepreneur, I feel like you just have to look for positives. Uh, there’s somebody, you know, ways not to, uh, not to be positive. So that’s when I started to realize, yeah, my vocabulary got much bigger and I’m actually much more club and patient when I speak though.

Moez Bawania: Cause I’m, I practiced that for 15, 20 years. So

Muhammad Kermalli: when you go back to that time, you talk about in the classroom and you fall, you have this sense of, you know, betrayal. It it’s funny. It doesn’t necessarily have to happen just when you’re seven, it can happen like that at any age, at any age. Um, you know, sometimes you, you know, whether you’re a teenager or even a full grown adult, you think somebody is on your side and then all of a sudden you see them on the other side of something.

Muhammad Kermalli: So that never really changes. But I think it’s, it’s way more. It feels like the end of the world when you’re seven years old, man old, you remember that? And then like the next day, you just back back to friends again, or how, like what happened next.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. So, uh, well, I don’t think it was that immediate, especially for, for him.

Moez Bawania: It, it kinda might’ve beat because he didn’t see it as a big deal. Cause when you’re not the victim, you don’t see it as a big deal. So it’s, what’s your that. And so I think for me, it was just like, okay, now he comes right back

Muhammad Kermalli: to you the next minute, like, Hey, what’s up? And you’re like,

Moez Bawania: uh, I was like, yeah.

Moez Bawania: So, because, you know, you can sort of see that, but then you, you, you know, that’s how this game works, right. That you sit there and you spy and then you kind of laugh and then you’ve done it. So, you know what the game’s like, but, uh, you know, it took, I think it would probably take a few weeks other that I was sort of back to normal and he didn’t do it again.

Moez Bawania: It was just, it was just once, but he bet, you know, 30 years later, I remember that one time where it was like three minutes or whatever it was. So,

Muhammad Kermalli: yeah. That’s interesting. Um, so when you were going to these classes, I found that on an interesting reflection as well. So this is something that you’re going through while you’re going through school.

Muhammad Kermalli: Um, and while, while you’re going through these classes, uh, you know, you first, like you say, you first realize, okay, um, I’m in this circumstance, um, and I’m gonna, uh, and there are people here to support me and to help me, that’s also a really reassuring thing at the same time, um, to even have that is, is a big blessing.

Muhammad Kermalli: Um, but when you’re going through it, tell, tell me more about it, because I got to say it doesn’t matter if it’s that or anything else to me, it’s like when we’re in those moments where we’re like, okay, we feel that we’re the underdog in some way. Right. Or the, it’s definitely not a level playing field right now.

Muhammad Kermalli: I’m at a disadvantage. Um, what were the thoughts like when you’re going through that as, as a young person, I mean, uh, were there, did you say, yeah, I’m going to conquer this thing or like, how did.

Moez Bawania: You told me you were going to dig deeper

Muhammad Kermalli: to tell you because for me, um, I’ve been there as well. And I know when you talk about, like, for example, just not being able to speak a language, that’s challenging enough.

Muhammad Kermalli: Um, in the, in the years that we, we first arrived to Toronto and Canada, um, and it was new for a lot of people to see somebody who didn’t speak the language so well, as they did, um, who didn’t know all the cultural stuff that they know, um, you know, race, religion, so many of these other kinds of things, cultures, right?

Muhammad Kermalli: Not being, as you know today is the internet. You just YouTube and you see everything you want or whatever. But back then, it wasn’t the same. And what I find is that learning from each person in terms of what their immediate reactions were and how they went from that before the, the moment they picked up, I find that to be interesting.

Muhammad Kermalli: Cause I think that’s very helpful to me, to a lot of people. Um, most people skip over that part because they’re like either they don’t want to relive it. But what I find is is that, um, when I look back on it, I kind of see like that as like the moment that you earned your badge man, like it’s, it’s a real, that’s when the, the true champion is made in that moment.

Muhammad Kermalli: It’s I don’t, I don’t, I always say like the champions are like, get the trophy later, but the champion was made in that. And I, so I, I re look at these moments over and over and over again. Uh, cause I’m like, yeah. Wow. That was not easy, man. And it reminds you that if you can do that, you know, the other stuff looks easy for sure.

Muhammad Kermalli: Yeah. But maybe it was

Moez Bawania: easy. Yeah. Yeah. You know, uh, I definitely agree with you even as a seven year old coming to Canada, don’t really know what’s CA what is Canada about? Yeah. Being able to go to those classes back then, it was actually, I hated going to those classes. Yeah. Initially, because it’s the thing that pulls you away from normal and it takes you away from what everybody else is doing.

Moez Bawania: And everybody knows that you’re going right. But over time, as you see that going to that big around others that are, you know, have this shared, lived experience that you do, uh, and actually be, they’d be so grateful for going there. It was, it was straight it’s just over time. And I actually realized, cause I think my parents had mentioned, they’re like, oh, this is covered.

Moez Bawania: And I’m like, I don’t really know what that bed, but it’s paid for basically. So I had a. That used to pick me up. So they would frame it in a positive way. They’d say, look, you get a taxi, picks you up from it’s like a chauffeur takes you to this place. And this therapist who is probably being paid quite well per hour is spending time with you and six other people.

Moez Bawania: Uh, and we’ve applied for this program for you. So it’s for my parents, even a bit that their kid had to go through this. It’s probably a big deal to talk to the school about it. As Indian parents were always like, you know, high achieving and, you know, don’t talk about, what’s hard. Talk about how you’re going to figure that out and be successful.

Moez Bawania: So for them to probably admit that their kid was going through this could have been easy, uh, but hated it to start with yeah. Hate it to start with, but got there and through listening to what they were saying by old realizations, I was like, wow. It made me really grateful for Canada. So I just wanted to put that out there because that to be like that.

Moez Bawania: Absolutely. Yeah. Like that’s, I think where I got my like real passion for Canada was through that. And then obviously as you grow up and you reflect on the opportunities you got as a family, your parents and your education and the passport, because I’ve traveled quite a bit after that I’d seen with that Canadian passport, uh, it does for you, uh, and how people respect it.

Moez Bawania: Right. That also kind of gave you that. But then he was going back to, uh, that time and how I sort of how I felt, I had to think about that for a second, because I haven’t really thought about it in too much detail. Like go back there. Yeah. So I remember the taxi would drop you off. You would go upstairs a flight of stairs and you would sit in like a way to group with these other kids as well.

Moez Bawania: And the first time, you know, you’re there, you’re talking to each other, you don’t actually want to be there with this other person. Right. Because you’re like, you’re, you know, I don’t like you, you’re not like me. You know, I don’t have that. You in your mind, you don’t want to think that you have a problem, right?

Moez Bawania: You’re just here. I don’t know why we’re here. So

Muhammad Kermalli: the starting point is that you have a problem.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. I’m, I’m not really your thing. I just need to go home. Like I be here because somebody told me to be here kind of like, yeah. It’s like, honestly, it’s like sometimes going to like a therapist. I mean, that was a therapy.

Moez Bawania: It was a speech therapy, or if you’re going for therapy for off some other kinds. Sure. You’re like, you know, usually if it’s like, you know, couples therapy, one person kind of wants to be there. The other person is like, I don’t know why we’re here. We’re a, we’re all good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I was like, yeah.

Moez Bawania: So we were all that person did that in that relationship pretty much like, we’re all good. Uh, but as time goes on and he started talking to the therapist and you’re like, oh wow, I’ve done. Actually, I have two opportunities here and I can see what success looks like.

Muhammad Kermalli: So you go from, you actually experienced denial basically to then acceptance of, I got, I got some work to do here.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. Yeah. And I think when you, uh, you know, they would, they would ask you, uh, they would get converted you into,

Muhammad Kermalli: into that. Yeah. So like the first step is like, you know, like we, we feel, or we hear some, something’s not right. Something’s wrong. And then obviously nobody wants to be wrong, so no, I’m not wrong.

Muhammad Kermalli: There’s nothing wrong with me. Right. So there’s that. And then there’s like, I’m going to work. It doesn’t just happen. Like, do you recall, like, was it like what finally starts getting you to think that to accept? Because that’s the beginning of the progress right there. That’s where success starts.

Moez Bawania: Yeah, I think that, uh, it does come down.

Moez Bawania: I know we’ve talked about this a lot to people, uh, the people around you, it comes down to the encouragement from your parents and you just trust the process. You see? Yeah. Yeah. You see the, the, the therapist and you think they’re going to be tough on you in a way, or like, be like your friends, you know, maybe who, uh, spy on you or whatever else, but actually they’re so supportive.

Moez Bawania: And so the first couple of times you’re like, this is not real, right. This is not real. There’s some ulterior motive here. You’re not sure what their intentions, that’s how it felt. Right. Okay. Yeah. At the beginning, you’re not sure. Right. You’re like here because I honestly thought I’m like, is this like a government program?

Moez Bawania: So this is as a seven year old when you’re reading these crazy, like, you know, chapter books that you’re just starting out. And you’re like, it’s like a government program to bring all of us together and like condition us. And honestly, I thought about all these wow things, because I was going into this room with all these people and they had a, they had this whole approach that we had to go through.

Moez Bawania: And then over time I kind of realized that, uh, okay, you know what this is. So I think when you see the evidence, you know, I’m, I’m an analytical thinker. I think I’m an accountant. Right. So I like kind of add up all the numbers and say, does this all reconcile? So when I take it back and I was sort of actually get the approach, I could see it working okay.

Moez Bawania: With, you know, by my classmates, I did life. And so then I went back and I said, okay, I’m going to give it a shot.

Muhammad Kermalli: Interesting. And then after that is when you started seeing like, so now you’re like engaging before you were not even engaging. And then you started getting, and when you first started engaging.

Muhammad Kermalli: Uh, in any sort of self-development and this is really all it is at the end of the day. It’s a form of self-development. Um, for people who’ve got great qualities think faster than they say something. Okay. Um, I still don’t see the problem. Right. But, um, but you, you start engaging and you start now sort of saying, okay, now I want to work on, on these things.

Muhammad Kermalli: Um, did you, at any time when you’re looking at this, ask yourself, like, how am I going to get to the end or have any doubts about changing the condition or being able to see that progress? Or did you see progress like and saw like, oh, there we go. There’s my path.

Moez Bawania: No, actually that’s a great question because there were people on the spectrum at different places, right.

Moez Bawania: Uh, there was almost this fear of getting to a more challenging place if you don’t take care of it. Right. Right. And that’s what I had heard as well from therapist was that like, if you are able to implement some of these practices and really try, then you’re able to trade your bite to think this way you can get better.

Moez Bawania: And it’s like a huge exponentially, better sort of place than you are today because you’re young enough that we can take care of it. But, uh, so that you can see other kids. Right. And you’re like, okay. Uh, so yeah, it wasn’t, uh, the kind of going back to the sort of the point of, uh, how did I get to that place?

Moez Bawania: It was, it was a fear of not getting worse in a way. Okay. Cause you could see that around you and it also, uh, yeah, I think over, over time being the underdog that you described before, you’re like, you have to find it within you. Right. So as, even as a kid, I, it was, it was this sort of like defensiveness that I had within myself.

Moez Bawania: So I’m like, I’m going to be the one to make it work. Even if everybody else is sort of say competitors. Yes, exactly. And maybe that some of that. You know, stuff that went up on the soccer field. Yeah. It comes back that guy, he says, no, I’m going to be the one, you know, I don’t want to lose this because I’ve seen what really, really bad could look like, but

Muhammad Kermalli: how you just used like fear in a really cool way.

Muhammad Kermalli: I mean, uh, you know, w when, whenever we’re in a tough position, you just said, like, it was profound, uh, that if you didn’t do something, there’s the fear of it will get worse then. Yeah. And that pushes you to get out of this position.

Moez Bawania: That’s really cool. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think now that I know that I think about it as a, you know, when you’re in business or in life, right.

Moez Bawania: Whatever you’re doing, um, when you could sort of, because you’ve been down that path before, don’t just with this, but other things in life failures, uh, or as we call them opportunities. Right. Right. When you’ve experienced some of the lows and you know, how it could go, and you start to notice the triggers or the way download, then you start to realize, okay, I better catch that early because I know how low I could go.

Moez Bawania: Okay. Especially when you’ve gone down that path, and we’re

Muhammad Kermalli: seeing others that are kind of like worse off, in some ways, right. In front of you to the point where you even thinking you could mentor them and help them. So you see yourself as a potential, like sources as being able to help them. That’s something that you don’t have to focus on your own.

Moez Bawania: I wonder. Yeah. That’s a good question. I, uh, I remember very distinctly when I was at Wilfrid Laurier and it was our undergrad and it was my first co-op trip. There was a, uh, an ambassador for one of the schools, you know, no names, but I’m sure if you watch, he’ll probably do who he is. And he had a stammering sort of, you know, problem.

Moez Bawania: Right. So I was like, oh, I couldn’t identify identified. I said, this is awesome. Huh. Cause I feared, I would not even get a job because I’ve been at interview and I stabbed her once or twice. And they’re like, I’ve never put this guy in front of a client. Okay. They would, that’s how bad it was. Like, you know?

Moez Bawania: And so when I see this guy and I’m like, oh wow, he’s at this like senior manager position at like a big four for I. So I go up and I talk to him and I stammered during that conversation. And it was years after this is, this is like, I w you know, I’m like 18, 19 years old. And I just noticed like a bit of a change in his behavior.

Moez Bawania: And it was just, I felt, again, it was like this betrayal kind of like this guy is like me in a way. Or, or, or at least I thought I was like him. Okay. But he sort of like turned away and he talked to somebody else. Now, maybe I’m inferring something from that, baby. I don’t know. I smell there was something else.

Moez Bawania: I just thought it was odd that like that bolded, as soon as I had that, uh, he sort of seemed to be disengaged. And I felt what you just said is BB, he did what a deal with the fact that there’s someone like him and that it’s like a subconscious reaction to people like you, because you don’t want to recognize that part of yourself.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. But kind of twisting that the other way is, like you said, why are you now trying to share with others or, or talk to others about it? Uh, actually

Muhammad Kermalli: familiarity breeds, contempt or

Moez Bawania: something. Yeah. Something like that. Right. Maybe that’s what it is. I think in my case, it’s a, it’s almost like a therapeutic thing for me to talk about it with others.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. It’s almost the opposite. It’s like, I want to know, talk about it. If I notice somebody who has it, I’ve had this in a couple of conversations where I would say, Hey, uh, you know, are you okay if we talk about this? And the person was like, oh, I’m so glad you asked me. Wow. But like, you know, you don’t want to ever impose like any word to talk about things that data was, but you want to ask permission.

Moez Bawania: And then we have the psych, you know, half an hour, hour long conversation. There’s some emotions, right. As part of that, of that person says, like, you know, wow, I can’t believe that you have gone through this journey that I I’ve gone through as well. Like you been so successful, you know, this thing, like we’ve talked about, right.

Moez Bawania: You haven’t seen all the ups and downs that it takes to get to even there. Then one day I’ll probably be backed out again. It’s still have to fight back. So, wow.

Muhammad Kermalli: Uh, there’s a saying like, you know, fall down six times get up seven. All you need is yeah, that’s it. So there’s, there’s almost like, um, we were talking to somebody else just earlier on and they were talking about just like character building days, character building day.

Muhammad Kermalli: So, um, so you, you start seeing some success at some point in time, you start seeing some progress. Um, and usually there are like results that we want to get. You know, we talk about being results oriented. You see this all over resumes. Um, I wonder about that. So, uh, you having the analytical mind, right? Uh, you, you see progress starting to take place and you start, you you’re motivated now you work a little bit harder at it.

Muhammad Kermalli: Did you ever get to a point where you didn’t see the progress that you wanted to see?

Moez Bawania: Yeah. Uh, for sure. I remember, um, in terms of career to work, uh, I kind of knew when I went to university that I wanted to go into accounting. Okay. So I wanted to be at a big four firm and, uh, I really would go to all those big servers and do all these different things.

Moez Bawania: And, uh, you know, some of my friends were getting into these firms and I wasn’t right away. Uh, so I definitely come back the memories. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it does. Yeah.

Muhammad Kermalli: In spite of the high grades, the good grades and all the other stuff.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. And so I wondered why actually I wondered why, uh, but what, uh, yeah.

Moez Bawania: Kind of going, going back to where you didn’t see the product. That’s fine. I sort of got into the accounting firm eventually and I kept my head down. Uh, and then it kinda got to a point where I remember growing up, like parents were like really into volunteering to the point where we’d be like dragged around to all these different events and like volunteering and doing stuff.

Moez Bawania: And so I feel like I wanted to do that more. Right. So progress. I was measuring a bit differently for myself. It was about purpose and impact maybe as opposed to like buddy when I was 16. I remember cause my wife found this paper that I had written when I was 16 and it had my like life goals on it really, it was like make a billion by the age of 30.

Moez Bawania: No, uh, the code of professional hockey player. But those two, I, I, I couldn’t be 10 billion if I, if I had done that. And then it was like other stuff about, about, you know, helping, you know, uh, people with education. And there was that stuff somehow like drew me to it, right when I wrote kind of re read the paper and I said, that’s where I probably didn’t feel the impact, uh, as much.

Moez Bawania: So when I was working at the big four consulting firm, uh, there was an opportunity to go to, uh, Egypt and Syria for night buds. But I would pretty much before going a promotion, I would basically be not be paid a salary and I would have to go. But it was this thing that the consulting firm was offering you to go partner with like a development organization to do so.

Moez Bawania: So yeah, that was where I said, you know, I have to try this for myself and, you know, make this leap go into the unknown where I don’t really know Arab Arabic anymore. It’ll be in Dubai as a kid. I learned how to count, count to like 10. Sure. Uh, so yeah, I sort of had to make that leap to be able to, uh, I think achieve that sense of purpose that I was looking for.

Muhammad Kermalli: And so eventually you start seeing these kind of like, uh, you see progress, you see, you’re getting somewhere you’re, you’re, you’re playing on a soccer field, you’re winning games, you’re getting championships. Right. And, um, but then that comes now the next phase, right? So you, like, you’ve gone through all this experience.

Muhammad Kermalli: You feel like, okay, now you have what it takes and then you, you start your, you, you leave all of that before you leave all of that. I mean, a lot of people who start down that path, it’s, um, it’s an interesting, you know, like sort of future there, right? There’s a like, oh, if you stay here this many years and you know, you’ll get to this and you’ll be called to this, um, and you’ll get to hang with these kinds of people and you’ll be seen this way.

Muhammad Kermalli: You obviously knew this. I mean, you worked hard to get into like, whatever you call it, the big four, whatever it’s called. Yeah. And then what you worked all of this hard to get in, and now what you don’t want it anymore. Like what happened there?

Moez Bawania: Yeah. Funny thing is that I want it to travel a lot. Okay. So in consulting, after, uh, so I went to the UK for a year.

Moez Bawania: Okay. I’ll have this forensic investigation there. I traveled a lot, like, you know, around Europe. Uh, and I was just pining for whole, like, I, I got to the point where I just wanted to be back home. Uh, I actually met my now wife in the UK, so I can’t complain about all the traveling. Cause it kinda got me to where we are now with our family.

Moez Bawania: Uh, but going back to your question about like, okay, what happened there? So I left the consulting firm to go to a bank to help build out their antibody laundering program because I went to see the impact of our work in consulting. What you do is it’s like you go in quick assess bake recommendations, and then you usually leave.

Moez Bawania: If you’re staying it’s, it’s rare, but you’re still leaving after like a year or two. At the bank, right. You’re going to stay there for five, seven years. You’re going to feel the impact of decisions you’re making on like different people of the organization. That’s what I want it to feel. Okay. Plus there was no traveling, so I’d be in Toronto.

Moez Bawania: And if you want to plan for a family, you can do that. Sure. So that’s sort of the progression there in corporate. And then he got to like 29 teed. And I had met my business partner now, business partner, Allie. Uh, he was also an executive at TD bank. This is 2008. Uh, I think 18, but we met at like a dad’s class for our kids.

Moez Bawania: He met my wife cause they, they were getting sick of this class with the kids. She introduced me to him. The rest is history. We’re talking about our careers and I’m telling him how I have this dream of one day being an entrepreneur. And he tells me, that’s weird. I do too. We actually grew up in the same neighborhood, but never knew each other.

Moez Bawania: And now we live like five minutes from each other, which is kind of interesting as well. Uh, but he had left TD. I continued on and he was not born in Dubai. He was not born here. That’s a good question. I think he was born in, come on. I should probably know that, but uh, yeah, he’s from Africa. That would be funny.

Moez Bawania: But uh, yeah, I felt at that point I was kind of like reflecting on what I want to do in life. Love it. And you know, just the way that I work, you know, what, what can be achieved? Everything is going well. Yeah. Yeah. So everything is going well. So what had happened and again, things that you don’t share with everybody, but you know, with you somehow.

Moez Bawania: So, uh, so at TD bank there was a reorganization of our department. And uh, at that time I was sorta told, look, you know, that role that you’re in is no longer available, but there’s going to be other roles that you can apply for an interview for. So I said, well, this is like, I mean, I had some failures. Yeah, exactly.

Moez Bawania: Right. Like it, it sounds like, you know, yeah, everything’s going well. I was, I was promoted, uh, pretty quickly into a senior role. And I was being told that I was a, again, B group for another, you know, senior role. And then you’re like, boom pulled from underneath you. So at that point, you realize I don’t control by destiny here.

Moez Bawania: It was something in the back of my mind. And I said, I don’t control my destiny here. As much as I maybe thought I was okay. I had an incredible leader who was my boss, and I learned a ton from him. And if I was continuing to work for him, you know, I probably would have just kept working, but he had decided to move on somewhere else as well.

Moez Bawania: And so that was my opportunity. So internally I interviewed for a couple of different roles at the same time, Audi and myself are talking about what’s happening in the accounting world, cloud technologies, innovation, do we start to adopt some of these? It creates a bit of a practice around it. And then we start to take out a couple of clients, small business clients on the side.

Moez Bawania: Okay. And so we’re doing that while I’m looking for these other roles, because I’m trying to now figure out, should I leave or should I stay? And, uh, then we finally picked up enough clients for one of us to leave our jobs. He’s got three kids. I’ve got two. Sure. So we’ve got to make a decision here. Sure. I, at the same time I got an offer to stay at the bank. Right.

Muhammad Kermalli: You got an offer to stay. Yeah. And you got

Moez Bawania: this. Yeah. And my wife is like, oh, so you’re going to stay at the back. Obviously like, well, it’s kind of what you said, right? It’s like, well, it’s comfortable. You know what the path is right by. Or you think, you know, what the path is until you realize that it could be taken away from you in the moment.

Moez Bawania: So that’s what I, you know, I was kind of sharing what I saw in the, in the field and the possibilities, of course, as Yuto. Well, you’re taking a big risk. But my father took a big risk cubby here. I had, my risk is nothing compared to his, right? Like he came here without Canadian experience or education and he had to build it up.

Moez Bawania: And if his failed his entire family, we’d be on the street pretty much. Whereas for me, I could go back and get a job if I really wanted to, at some point, you know what I mean? So being analytical, I guess it’s like the floor was much higher for me. And I could see myself experimenting, trying to get out and see where I land after two years.

Moez Bawania: Uh, but of course you have to plan your cashflow and everything else accordingly, but that’s how I made the leap.

Muhammad Kermalli: Interesting. And so, uh, that, that’s not even knowing that when we had talked. Yeah. Right. So now I’m even more sure that you, like, you’re obviously you did it right. You, you you’ve thought you’ve thought it through so well, but then why did you even have any doubts about it to begin with?

Muhammad Kermalli: So now I’m even more perplexed that you would even have a doubt about it

Moez Bawania: when you start, like you said, you’re doing pretty well, uh, you know, transparently, you’ve got a six figure salary and perks and you know, it’s a nice title. Uh, every month you see the paycheck covet and you feel good, everything’s covered.

Moez Bawania: And it a business, you know, cause I’ve been through it. We’ve been in the back of the van, going to Montreal with our sports cards, hockey cards, baseball cards, sleeping on the. Delivering somewhere coming back, because this was like a friend of my dad’s and he was a vendor the next day. It’s a competitor.

Moez Bawania: Like I’ve seen the cutthroat nature of business and I’ve seen the ups and downs too. And so for me, it wasn’t as cut and dry because I’ve gone through some of the, what I might call, although it’s probably exaggerating, but like kind of like the traumatic events of entrepreneurs, ship life, uh, through my like, experiences.

Moez Bawania: Right. So here I wanted to see what the economics look like, what the macro looked like and say, okay, you know what the chance is in accounting of not succeeding are like, not that high, right? Like you could, you could do pretty well. If you’re an artist person, if you care about your clients and, you know, you’re, you kind of know what you’re doing.

Muhammad Kermalli: Um, so you started your business and then dependent demic hits. Yeah. And you’re, you’re, you’re like you’re out there. You’re putting in the time, like, uh, you’re going at it pretty hard. Um, it went all according to plan.

Moez Bawania: Oh, exactly. Not according

Muhammad Kermalli: to plan. So even the analyst, even the mind, even all of that

Moez Bawania: stuff, we had a whole strategic plan, uh, by business partner was, uh, you know, we had a plan for him, you know, based on our run rate to, uh, join the business.

Moez Bawania: Full-time yeah. But of course we had a whole marketing plan and we’re going to go out there, but once a pandemic hits, you’re not doing any marketing because no one cares about buying from you. All they want to do is, or, or to switch or be change because so much change is thrust on you. Right. It’s I don’t want to change my accountants.

Moez Bawania: That’s the last thing I’m thinking about right now. And so all you ha I was thinking about that at that bullet was other than replanting, our cash flows was for, you know, our part by partner. And I just say, okay, He should stay at his role logger. Uh, and we had some arrangements around that. Uh, and then I would continue service the clients that we had today and just do an awesome job for them.

Moez Bawania: So we basically did way, way above and beyond just for them. It all let’s see. That was the best thing that could have happened for us, because through them is how our business has grown since through what we know word of mouth that would after another. But I had also bought a house like in, uh, six months before the pandemic, like right around the time of the re reorganization.

Moez Bawania: And so that’s another reason why a job would have been, you know, much better because I had this fixed cost every month that I had to manage. And so now with the pandemic, you know, I had to, obviously, you know, it was a simple thing. We’ll have it. And I don’t even know if it’s the right thing. Then we, you know, but even a coffee, I would not buy a Tim Horton’s coffee.

Moez Bawania: I said, until I am able to show that I’m at this level, in terms of my family being taken care of and things, I’m not going to buy a Tim Horton’s coffee. So my wife was like, okay, you’ve gone like a bud without Tim Horton’s coffee. Something’s wrong with you because you drink this thing every day. So she was like sponsoring my coffee’s there

Muhammad Kermalli: for a while.

Muhammad Kermalli: You know, that’s, that’s amazing that you talk about that, but like you have the, you have the discipline to, to, to first of all, pay attention to that and to say that, okay, well, no, this is going to be, and then it acts as a, as a motivator for you as well. So you you’ve been keeping it real the whole time, but it’s interesting.

Muhammad Kermalli: You say having a job would have been better, but imagine if you had the job and didn’t have this developed to this point, then finding out at that point in time, after you bought the house expecting to have a regular job, that’s going to give you everything. Then being told now your position doesn’t exist anymore because that did happen to people.

Muhammad Kermalli: Yes.

Moez Bawania: It, and especially like so true, especially during the pandemic, it’s happened to so many people. Right. Uh, so you’re so right. Like I think, what do you do then? What do you do that, uh, Yeah, I think that obviously I would have had a sense of regret in that bullet for not having, you know, made that decision, uh, the just kind of pick, pick yourself up from there, just like the other times.

Moez Bawania: Right. It’s okay. To, how do I move forward and find a business opportunity at that point? I feel,

Muhammad Kermalli: um, and it’s interesting, cause we’ve covered so much ground in terms of like where you started from to where you are now. Um, like, you know, when you look back right at that starting point, what will you change?

Muhammad Kermalli: Is there anything that you would, you’d be like, Hey, this is what I would change.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. I think in terms

Muhammad Kermalli: of circumstances that you faced,

Moez Bawania: oh, in terms of the actual circumstances, like what would

Muhammad Kermalli: I have changed here if you, if you, if you were given a choice, Hey, I’m stammering condition. Non-stop you know what I mean?

Muhammad Kermalli: I think that that would have,

Moez Bawania: I would watch every fitting, every single experience that I had. I would, yeah, I would, I wouldn’t want it all betraying

Muhammad Kermalli: you in my grade seven class. Like you wouldn’t have a memory like that. You wouldn’t have the trouble.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. Yeah. But that’s your touch with the trauma?

Moez Bawania: That’s the trouble, right. That actually builds us up. It’s a, I mean, it’s so cliche, but it’s so true. Okay. Those are the things, so, okay. Last, last year, the summer. Okay. It was a Saturday and you know, uh, I had a client and I had to do a bank reconciliation. Okay. Okay. I was off by like 5 cents. Okay. But I cannot let this thing be off by 5 cents.

Moez Bawania: Cause I wouldn’t reconcile that to the petty. Sure. Cause that that’s a control and I’m like, it’s a beautiful Saturday by kids and my wife were outside. I should be outside like hanging out with them. If you were asking me on a Saturday or golfing or something, absolutely not doing a bank reconciliation.

Moez Bawania: And you have to remember as well. Yeah, exactly. I have had a team for the. Almost 10, 12 years, people that are doing the work for me, this is me doing it on my own food. And on a Saturday, after already working 12 hours a day for a buddy to Friday, and I call her business partner up to it. I’m like, this is ridiculous.

Moez Bawania: Like, what am I doing? And so you hit this kind of low for yourself. Uh, and then you realize that things you’ve had to go through in your life to get to the point you’re at. You’re like, suck it up there. This is just one more thing. Look at where you can be one year from now, if you achieve this thing, because that’s what you have done before.

Moez Bawania: So all the pain you’ve gone through, and you’ve said, if I can survive that and I can survive this and I can survive that why this is like nothing, right? It’s 5 cents. Yeah. It’s 5 cents. And so there’s other like examples of that, like when the pandemic hits and you can’t do your marketing and you just find a way through it because you’re like, but you’ve done this before.

Moez Bawania: You’ve seen your father and the struggles they’ve gone through and how they’ve been creative and found ways forward. A lot of the inspiration is within yourself to be able to push forward. You don’t have to feel sorry, or look to others, just find a way forward yourself.

Muhammad Kermalli: That’s what I love about, you know, um, your perspective on this is that you could have chosen to feel sorry for yourself on all of these things.

Muhammad Kermalli: So you never ever had this sort of feeling of I’m a victim or something’s wrong, or why me,

Muhammad Kermalli: even while you’re going through this, did you ever have that of like, I’m a victim or

Moez Bawania: feeling sorry for yourself? I think, I think that, that one time about like that thing, I was like, I felt like I was on the outside. Yeah. Other than that, I, I always felt like I’m part of something, even if it’s going through an experience, you know, I’m in that Bobett and I been that experience.

Moez Bawania: Right. So that experience, I have to find a way to leverage that and make something positive.

Muhammad Kermalli: You remind me of a saying, I love these Proverbs, this one that says one of my favorites. It says, you know, we rise by lifting others and you have, when I hear your, your recollection or your, your reflection is that, you know, you had this condition and you’ve referred to it as a problem.

Muhammad Kermalli: I wouldn’t call it a problem. But you had this, this condition, which actually puts you later on into, uh, into an advantage, but was seen initially, perhaps as a disadvantaged position, um, which is also why sometimes I argue about people who say that they’re at a disadvantage. So anyway, that’s a whole other thing, but you know, you had this and instead of just looking at yourself, even in the midst of that, you looked at others and it, um, and you were trying to help them.

Muhammad Kermalli: People who had it worse than you. That’s amazing. And that by doing that sort of gave you the relief also to not have to look at your situation sometimes, and just focus on that. And by that kind of like you develop your own strength and then you’re able to deal with your own. So instead of just dealing with your own condition and trying to find your progress, you’re helping others to progress, then you progress.

Muhammad Kermalli: I thought that’s an interesting chronology to it all.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. I have found that so many times we’ll have, it is like you just, uh, with people. Yeah. Get to know them. And actually the quality, the stammering quality, uh, actually allows you to listen more because you don’t want to speak first. Speaking is not a super enjoyable thing when you’ve got this thing.

Moez Bawania: Right? So you stopped speaking and you, listen, you ask questions. So you learn how to ask better questions than to listen to. To then respond to the very clear and simple way. Although I have verbose a lot, I’m sure my wife will say, but I do. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that’s right. But I do, uh, I do do it to start about by itself, but with other people, uh, yeah.

Moez Bawania: Like it’s just, it’s just a way more enjoyable to like, you know, build those connections and say, oh, so that’s your strength and that’s what you like this other person likes that let’s see if you guys could connect or is there a way that we can share experiences? Yeah,

Muhammad Kermalli: no, I love that. How it’s seen as, um, you know, some traumatic experiences you look at and wouldn’t trade up for any of them.

Muhammad Kermalli: Cause they’re in lies. And I, I know it sounds cliche, but that’s amazing that you’re able to say that because a lot of people, while they’re in that moment, right. And going through that sort of experience are really, we struggle and those moments to find how, what we need to do next, right. Or how we’re going to find our way forward from here.

Muhammad Kermalli: And your, your route is really, really different. It’s really, really interesting. You didn’t even look at your own problem and you’re looking at somebody else’s while you’re there and that got you through. That’s really interesting. Um, what, what else would you, what, what would you share with somebody who’s, who’s going through it or who you’ve seen has got maybe

Moez Bawania: worse?

Moez Bawania: You know, I think, uh, a couple of things have really helped me as well. Uh, reading has probably be one of them there. It is again. Yeah. Like, like, like I remember, um, like ed Frank, like when you read stuff that people have late, like when people have to go through, uh, you know, like these hollow cast camps and what they have to endure that I think it was like Victor Frankel.

Moez Bawania: And, you know, it’s like just, you know, Med’s ability to hope beyond reason, uh, and where that can take you. And I was like, wow, if you guys can do that, then I could probably do this. Traveling is the other thing, right? For sure is you go to Cambodia and you see the prisons that were there and how people were treated.

Moez Bawania: And then you go into, you know, different countries and you see the beauty of things that people have built, like the pyramids, uh, are you say, like people are capable of a lot of evil and I’ve a lot of good and you really have to, you know, engage with them and find a way to, you know, uh, you know, maybe influence them in a way positively so that you influence as many people positively as you can, because there is a potential for good or for evil in everyone, because you’ve seen this diverse range out there.

Moez Bawania: Right. And the other thing too, is as well, like clash, it breaks all these stereotypes for me. I feel like when you grow up, you grew up with your parents, assumptions and biases. It’s like, don’t hang out with these people because they are different or they might do things to you, or then you grew up.

Moez Bawania: You’re like, wow, that was like soul that he assumptions and biases. Now when I traveled and I see those same people in another context, doing amazing things like, okay, that’s changed my perspective on people. And now I’m just like all about start to get to know people. And it’s so much more fun that way when you more open to that.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. Thank you,

Muhammad Kermalli: man.

Moez Bawania: Yeah. So fun talking to you.

Muhammad Kermalli: Uh, you know, I think it’s every day we meet people and just off of like, circumstance, right. We just happen to be picked by the same guy. What was he thinking? Right. Yeah. Some other sort of opportunity putting us together on the same team.

Muhammad Kermalli: Um, and it was just, I think only one year maybe that we, one summer,

Moez Bawania: it was only one summer. And, uh, I remember getting back into entrepreneurship and I, you know what, I saw your name pop up on my LinkedIn feed somehow. And I got in touch with, I was like, I am going to beat this guy. Right. If there’s anybody I’m going to beat, I’m going to beat

Muhammad Kermalli: you.

Muhammad Kermalli: It’s a very, and we’re going to go back to playing soccer again. Right. Cause I’m ready

Moez Bawania: for it. Let’s do it. Thank you,

Muhammad Kermalli: man.